Making a buck saw

[Prometheus]

Hello all,

Broke my bow saw last weekend, and I figured that rather than simply replacing the damaged blade and missing rivet, I'd make my own out of hard maple and a replacement blade. Obviously, this isn't a terrribly hard job, but I figured I'd see if anyone has got any pointers that I may not have considered.

My general idea is to make a basic H-frame with the blade on one side, and a threaded rod on the other (to adjust the tension with a wrench- I know there are some methods that use a cable, but I figured the rod would be a little bit more solid) So as far as I can see, I have only two or three things to consider here- first is the joinery for that middle crossbar; my inclination is to use a loose mortise and tenon joint with a wooden dowel to keep it from falling apart when changing the blade. I figure a little bit of slack will allow the joint to move when the blade is tensioned (no glue in the joint, obviously) The second consideration is a matter of basic design- what I've used in the past is the standard metal bow saw, but I've seen that the older saws have a frame that extends below the blade on one side. Generally, I'm using the saw on logs that are laying on or near the ground, so I'm afraid it could get in the way, but if there is a compelling reason to keep that extended frame, I'm sure I can work with it (my guess is it helps to keep the blade plumb, but I couldn't say for sure) The third is whether it's useful to leave a set of handles on the top of the saw above the tensioning rod, or if that is simply too high and unsteady when you use it. Weight isn't much of an issue, just performance.

So, can anyone spot any holes in my plan that I may have missed? I'd hate to use the last of my rock maple, and then have to smack myself upside the head because I forgot something really important. I can always try again, but it's nice to do it right the first time. I've also got a good plank of 4/4 ash that I could use, if it's a better wood for the job (It has more spring than maple, IIRC.)

To try to anticipate the inevitable requests for more info, the saw will be for cross-cutting logs for turning blanks because I don't have a chainsaw and can't afford one right now (at least, not one worth having). I'm making it, and not buying it because I want a deeper throat depth than the bow saws at the hardware store provide, and the standard hardware store ones have a tendancy to dig into my little finger (I have big hands, and the blade flexes upward when cutting) The blade I'll be using is a standard 36" bow saw replacement blade. Finish will be tung oil, just 'cause it's a little more hand friendly than poly, and won't get milky if it gets wet like shellac does.

If it works out well, I'm considering a frame saw for resawing short planks out of some of the trunks I come across (hard to find spalted wood at the lumber supplier, after all) so any good links to nice rip blades for a hand saw would also be appreciated!

[Dave in Fairfax]

snip

Ask C-less. Hehehehe. GD&R Dave in Fairfax

[Andy Dingley]

Just make a lose mortice and tenon. Needing to be laid flat when you assemble it isn't a problem and the ability to pack it flat and store it all in a tube or tied into a bundle is useful.

Don't make the blade retaining pegs too small. If you do use small steel pegs, bush the holes in the wooden frame with a piece of copper pipe (aircon or brakepipe)

Drill the blade before adjusting the frame. The holes should be punched (or plasma cut). If you drill them, it's a swine of a job and they're likely to end up not exactly where you planned.

String is important. It needs to have some stretch to it, so old cotton string is fine, modern ultra-strong non-stretch isn't. There's always some flex in the frame and you want a string that is stretched with some strain in it, not one that goes slack as soon as the ends move in a bit.

[Larry Jaques]

I'm not available for consultation on that subject at the moment, though my (half) vast experience in the subject is of majestic notoriety. Thanks for thinking of me, Dave. ;)

[Patriarch]

Prometheus wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Check the articles section of the hand tools board at Woodcentral.com. There are some excellent pointers on various user-crafted saws posted.

And let us know how it turns out. This is one of those 'some day' projects for me.

Patriarch

[Prometheus]

Ahh... perhaps I should make a point of posting pics of the finished saw on ABPW, eh? :)

[Prometheus]

I actually grabbed a set of 1/4" bolts for securing the blade- the bit that broke on the steel one I had was the rivet that held the blade, so it seemed sort of safer to bolt that blade on. Bad idea, or is it just less convienient than the pegs?

Got lucky there- the blade I bought has two pairs of holes already in place. Standard in these parts.

As noted in the original post, I was looking at using a piece of threaded rod, and adjusting the tension with a nut. Is there some reason why this might not work, or is it just that the string is traditional? If I need to have the string, I've got some cotton clothesline that might do the job.

[Juergen Hannappel]

On my old Ulmia frame saws the loose tenon is just a small piece of shhet metal, the mortice was obviously made by a very thin kerf circular saw blade.

[...]

Look on

at the last Item on the page, there is a saw blade holder for frame saws. BTW: The Japanese rip cut blade has too fine teeth for resawing anything big, been there, done that...

[...]

Threaded rod also has no "stretch".

[Morris Dovey]

| My general idea is to make a basic H-frame with the blade on one | side, and a threaded rod on the other (to adjust the tension with a | wrench- I know there are some methods that use a cable, but I

You might consider screen door hardware: a center turnbuckle with (IIRC) 1/8" or 3/16" rods threaded about 1-/1/2" on one end and an eye on the other for tensioning the blade.

| figured the rod would be a little bit more solid) So as far as I | can see, I have only two or three things to consider here- first is | the joinery for that middle crossbar; my inclination is to use a | loose mortise and tenon joint with a wooden dowel to keep it from | falling apart when changing the blade. I figure a little bit of | slack will allow the joint to move when the blade is tensioned (no | glue in the joint, obviously) The second consideration is a matter

The loose M&T approach is a good one. I don't think the dowels are needed - and suspect that the saw might be stronger without drilling for the dowel. The saw should be easy to assemble on a flat surface and, once assembled and tensioned, doesn't need dowels to stay together. I think you'll do better by supporting the crosspiece on the shoulders of the tenon than on a dowel or pin through the tenon.

| of basic design- what I've used in the past is the standard metal | bow saw, but I've seen that the older saws have a frame that | extends below the blade on one side. Generally, I'm using the saw | on logs that are laying on or near the ground, so I'm afraid it | could get in the way, but if there is a compelling reason to keep | that extended frame, I'm sure I can work with it (my guess is it | helps to keep the blade plumb, but I couldn't say for sure) The | third is whether it's useful to leave a set of handles on the top | of the saw above the tensioning rod, or if that is simply too high | and unsteady when you use it. Weight isn't much of an issue, just | performance.

I don't think I'd bother with handle below the blade. I'd guess that it might make starting a cut somewhat easier with really agressive blades; but if it gets in the way, I'd omit it.

Be nice to yourself and the saw - roll the log onto something that holds it off the ground for sawing. There isn't any part of a saw that likes dirt and gravel. Even a foot-long piece of 4x4 can save a lot of wear and tear.

Weight can have a substantial effect on the /sawyer/, which will affect performance.

| So, can anyone spot any holes in my plan that I may have missed? | I'd hate to use the last of my rock maple, and then have to smack | myself upside the head because I forgot something really important. | I can always try again, but it's nice to do it right the first | time. I've also got a good plank of 4/4 ash that I could use, if | it's a better wood for the job (It has more spring than maple, | IIRC.)

Unless you're trying for a masterpiece on the first try, build it out of whatever you think'll hold up decently - then you can feel more free to rebuild individual parts for greater ease of use, comfort, etc. I built my first from pine and ended up doing a fair amount of sanding to make the handle comfortable.

| To try to anticipate the inevitable requests for more info, the saw | will be for cross-cutting logs for turning blanks because I don't | have a chainsaw and can't afford one right now (at least, not one | worth having). I'm making it, and not buying it because I want a

While there's a certain amount of satisfaction to be had from making the saw and using it to cut blanks for turning, don't overlook the possibility of renting a chain saw so that you'll have time and energy left over for turning. :-)

| If it works out well, I'm considering a frame saw for resawing short | planks out of some of the trunks I come across (hard to find spalted | wood at the lumber supplier, after all) so any good links to nice | rip blades for a hand saw would also be appreciated!

Interesting! Don't forget to post photos to ABPW...

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[Andy Dingley]

Bolts or screws ? If you're sitting a thin piece of metal on it, make sure it's resting on a plain shank, not a thread, or else it won't be stable.

I need to drill / punch my blades because I'm generally making them from bandsaw blade.

That's a frame saw, rather than a bow saw. The difference is that you do need to have a rigid frame, so that any flexing that goes on is small enough not to loosen the blade tension. This means bigger, thicker, stiffer frames (heavier too) and joints with less wobble.

Personally I'd use string and a spanish windlass (stick and twisting). It's low-tech, but it's lightweight and it works.

[Prometheus]

Ah, I'll fill this in a bit- the plan is to make the vertical members of the frame out ot two pieces of laminated 4/4 stock, with a very small dado for the blade, then drilling holes large enough for the bolt head and the nut to sit in the recess. The blade won't be held directly by the bolt, though the bolt will go through the hole in the blade for positioning. Main holding power will be the clamping action of the two bits of wood.

The thought being that a nice flat surface to hold the blade is a little easier on it, my aforementioned galootish hands like a thicker handle, and the frame will flex less with a 1.5" thick frame. Not to mention the fact that with this method, the mortise becomes two matching dadoes, which is always a little easier to cut!

Sounds like the Frame saw is what I'm looking at- I figure it'll be nice to use for a while, and then when I upgrade to a good chainsaw, it'll look good on the wall of the shop, at least.

If I have time, I might try both methods out- nothing wrong with the idea of having one in the car for an emergency.

[Prometheus]

I had considered that, but as I sat there in the middle of the hardware aisle while my wife was waiting in the car, I figured I'd better just nab what I good and get back before she roasted in the sun... That may be an upgrade later on, though.

Okay- sounds like dowels don't matter much for this one. I sort of thought they wouldn't, but I figured I'd float the trial balloon.

Got ya. Never had a problem starting cuts with the other saw, and this is the same blade, so I'll nix it. Just didn't want to skip something that was there for a reason I didn't understand, and regret it later.

Only problem with this is application- The wood I generally collect is blown down in storms, not logged, so it's often still attached to the stump by a sizable bit of sapwood and bark. Sometimes it can be chopped free with the axe, but sometimes it's too *bouncy* and the saw just works better. Once it's home, then I use something to get it up off the floor- it's just not always very easy in the field.

I suppose- but I'm an awfully big guy who does a lot of manual work. What's light for me may be heavy for others.

I don't know about a masterpiece- but I'd like it to look like I cared when I made it!

Point taken- I generally harvest wood on weekends, and turn after work during the week, so they don't interfere with one another *too* much.

I won't!

[Australopithecus scobis]

I cut slots in the bolt with a hacksaw. The blade gets better support that way. My big framesaw (27") uses little nuts and bolts; my little one (12") just has twists of paperclip wire in each hole. File a flat in the side of the bolt before you drill, too.

FWIW, I simply scaled up the bugsaw (DAGS) plan for my big saw; I think it turned out beefier than it needs to be.

[Australopithecus scobis]

(shoulda put this in 'tother post.)

I use 3/16" garage door opener cable on the 27" framesaw. Bootlace and

1/8" cable both snapped when I torqued them up. (Watch out. That stick _hurts_ when it whips around!) Little saw just uses a bootlace.

[Prometheus]

Pressure of the wood on either side is the holding/stablizing force. Works nice for me, though if it presents any problems down the road, I'll use pins for them instead when I replace the blade.

Couldn't get a relevant hit on "bugsaw" on Google, but I did come up with a nice saw by copying a design from an antiques site.

Anyhow, thanks for all the suggestions- I got it finished Sunday night, and it works great, but now I can't get the camera to turn on (for anyone in the market for digital cameras, the Polaroid we got has been nothing but headaches.) I'll post the pics as soon as I can get them taken- but I might be waiting on warranty work. If anyone would like a detailed description or some kind of plan, let me know and I'll post those instead.

[Morris Dovey]

| If anyone would like a detailed description or some kind of plan, let | me know and I'll post those instead.

Both? (Please.)

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[dingbat]

The handle below the blade is useful for controlling twist. If it's a big buck saw and you're using it with two people for rough firewood crosscutting, then it's worth having.

I wouldn't have it on a workshop bow saw, but I would put one on a firewood saw.

[Dave in Fairfax]

Prometheus wrote: snip

Mine too. I went back to using the Fuji. OTOH, the Polaroid worked just fine after I put it on the skeet thrower. Flew out about 20 yds before I got a good bead on it. Didn't fly flat though, lots of rotation.

Dave in Fairfax

[fredfighter]

Regarding your buck saw, don't use curly maple...

The one I made that didn't break is made from Doug Fir. I used roll pins to hold the blade in place, and a rawhide shoe string to tension it.

Works pretty well but instead of a straight "H" I should have angled the uprights in for more of an "A" frame to get a more comfortable grip on the saw.

[fredfighter]

I've read (here on rec.woodorking IIRC) that drilling a hole in a saw blade, like a bandsawblade being used for frame saw, can be madeeasy by "spot annealing" the location where the hole is to be drilled. This can be done by chucking a blunt rod, like a nail with the tip ground off in a drill press and pressing that at high speed against the spot until it glows red. Then let it air cool and drill the hole.

Have you seen the guy at the woodworking shows who sells the drill bits that drill through files? He uses a similar technique, only he anneals with the point of his carbide bit, resting it on the surface for a few seconds before he drills through. That also explains why he doesn't use coolant.