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I see several things in your contention that I have problems with.

Assuming the applied voltage is the same or nearly so, the inrush magnetising current will be the same as before. Adding load won't change this. For AC, unlike DC, it is the applied voltage that determines the peak flux (E=4.44***f***N*phimax or phimax=E/(4.44***f***N) for sinusoidal excitation) and
this flux must be there independent of the core. The magnetising current is
that needed to provide the flux for the particular core. It will be high
with a lousy core or under saturation but the flux will be determined by the
voltage. The total input current will be increased by turning the load on
before energisation because you will have load current in parallel with the
magnetising current. However, given that, whenever switching occurs, there
is a transient which can produce a transient DC offset and this can lead to
saturation with a resulting current that can be excessive. The transformer
will appear as a non-linear reactor, rather than a resistor. Adding a load
would not change this as during this transient condition, the load voltage
may be quite small as would the load current because at high inrush
currents.
Rather than say that the magnetising current is the difference between the
load current equivalent and the primary current -which is true- consider
that the primary current consists of the load current equivalent + the
magnetising current which depends on the flux which depends in turn upon the
voltage in the AC case (Faraday's law, which applies, relates (rate of
change of) flux and voltage, not flux and current.

The turnon transient isn't similar to normal AC operation; a half- cycle of positive potential in normal AC conditions always occurs right after the core achieves maximum negative flux. If the core flux starts at zero (or even slightly positive due to remnant magnetism) and THEN is powered at the beginning of a half-cycle of positive potential, the end of that half-cycle of excitation will occur with 150% of the normal flux in the core.

If there is a substantial load attached, the flux will be less than 150%, and (of course) if there is a short circuit attached to the output, there will be zero flux (but despite the non-saturation of the core, that won't help the blown-fuse situation much).

Yep. It was my habit to do power surge testing on newbuilt electronics with a switch and large nearly-unladen transformer, because every tenth onswitch of the transformer generated hum/arcing on the switch and significant powerline transients. If my box survived that, I figured it'd work fine in the real-world environment. HF from the switch arcing, 1-cycle dropouts from the transformer going into saturation, maybe a bit of overvoltage (until the arc formed)... that power outlet was guaranteed hostile enough for a good test.

The fuse went open with no load, so I assumed the problem to be saturation of the core, and just looked at the scenario for that one effect, and found a likely treatment. I understand that maximum-voltage switching is another treatment (there are solid-state relays for this).

#### Site Timeline

- posted on January 18, 2008, 5:09 am

Assuming the applied voltage is the same or nearly so, the inrush magnetising current will be the same as before. Adding load won't change this. For AC, unlike DC, it is the applied voltage that determines the peak flux (E=4.44

--

Don Kelly snipped-for-privacy@shawcross.ca

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- posted on January 18, 2008, 6:06 am

The turnon transient isn't similar to normal AC operation; a half- cycle of positive potential in normal AC conditions always occurs right after the core achieves maximum negative flux. If the core flux starts at zero (or even slightly positive due to remnant magnetism) and THEN is powered at the beginning of a half-cycle of positive potential, the end of that half-cycle of excitation will occur with 150% of the normal flux in the core.

If there is a substantial load attached, the flux will be less than 150%, and (of course) if there is a short circuit attached to the output, there will be zero flux (but despite the non-saturation of the core, that won't help the blown-fuse situation much).

- posted on January 19, 2008, 5:52 am

----------------------------

wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPLY ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The turnon transient isn't similar to normal AC operation; a half- cycle of positive potential in normal AC conditions always occurs right after the core achieves maximum negative flux. If the core flux starts at zero (or even slightly positive due to remnant magnetism) and THEN is powered at the beginning of a half-cycle of positive potential, the end of that half-cycle of excitation will occur with 150% of the normal flux in the core.

If there is a substantial load attached, the flux will be less than 150%, and (of course) if there is a short circuit attached to the output, there will be zero flux (but despite the non-saturation of the core, that won't help the blown-fuse situation much).

True, the turn on isn't the same as steady state and I hope that I didn't imply that. You are looking at the case when the transformer is energised at the time when voltage passes through 0 which is a worst case situation. In the case of a linear core transformer, the "steady state" flux will be at a negative maximum so there is a bridging transient.

Krause and Wasynczulk, "Electromechanical motion devices" deals with a transformer situation. Linear model: no load-peak current max amplitude 2***root(2)
Short circuited: peak current 7.4***root(2)
Loaded somewhere in between.
Including saturation: no load 8*root(2) peak but only on the first half
cycle.
The primary flux linkages are essentially the same for all cases.
A (rough) transient analysis of a 10kVA 1000/200 V transformer based on what
appears to be reasonable data indicates in a worse case case ignoring
saturation and leakage reactance does show that the magnetising component of
current is offset by somethng under 200% from the steady state peak values
for no load. There is With rated load, and the same data, the analysis
shows a larger time constant and a smaller transient bridging current but
the maximum inrush current is still higher than the no load inrush.

The culprit is saturation. I am not going to try to do a numerical analysis of this as it is messy,but if saturation occurs, the d(phi)/di or inductance of the core becomes small, Leakage reactance isn't affected as much because part of the leakage path is outside the core. The reference above shows an initial sharp reduction in the secondary voltage due to saturation along with the limiting effect of primary impedance. Initial load current will then also be limited so that it may not have the effect that you suggest.

It is a bit messier than you have indicated but, if you have contradictory references, I would like to see them -my observations are pretty much off the cuff and if out to lunch, I would like to know why (and eat crow in that case).

wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPLY ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The turnon transient isn't similar to normal AC operation; a half- cycle of positive potential in normal AC conditions always occurs right after the core achieves maximum negative flux. If the core flux starts at zero (or even slightly positive due to remnant magnetism) and THEN is powered at the beginning of a half-cycle of positive potential, the end of that half-cycle of excitation will occur with 150% of the normal flux in the core.

If there is a substantial load attached, the flux will be less than 150%, and (of course) if there is a short circuit attached to the output, there will be zero flux (but despite the non-saturation of the core, that won't help the blown-fuse situation much).

True, the turn on isn't the same as steady state and I hope that I didn't imply that. You are looking at the case when the transformer is energised at the time when voltage passes through 0 which is a worst case situation. In the case of a linear core transformer, the "steady state" flux will be at a negative maximum so there is a bridging transient.

Krause and Wasynczulk, "Electromechanical motion devices" deals with a transformer situation. Linear model: no load-peak current max amplitude 2

The culprit is saturation. I am not going to try to do a numerical analysis of this as it is messy,but if saturation occurs, the d(phi)/di or inductance of the core becomes small, Leakage reactance isn't affected as much because part of the leakage path is outside the core. The reference above shows an initial sharp reduction in the secondary voltage due to saturation along with the limiting effect of primary impedance. Initial load current will then also be limited so that it may not have the effect that you suggest.

It is a bit messier than you have indicated but, if you have contradictory references, I would like to see them -my observations are pretty much off the cuff and if out to lunch, I would like to know why (and eat crow in that case).

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- posted on January 19, 2008, 7:33 am

RE: Subject

This discussion has gotten to the point that maybe it is about time to start talkingh about flux sucking shunts or even "The Sex life of An Electron", starring Milly Henry.

Lew

This discussion has gotten to the point that maybe it is about time to start talkingh about flux sucking shunts or even "The Sex life of An Electron", starring Milly Henry.

Lew

- posted on January 19, 2008, 9:05 pm

Yep. It was my habit to do power surge testing on newbuilt electronics with a switch and large nearly-unladen transformer, because every tenth onswitch of the transformer generated hum/arcing on the switch and significant powerline transients. If my box survived that, I figured it'd work fine in the real-world environment. HF from the switch arcing, 1-cycle dropouts from the transformer going into saturation, maybe a bit of overvoltage (until the arc formed)... that power outlet was guaranteed hostile enough for a good test.

The fuse went open with no load, so I assumed the problem to be saturation of the core, and just looked at the scenario for that one effect, and found a likely treatment. I understand that maximum-voltage switching is another treatment (there are solid-state relays for this).

- posted on January 21, 2008, 3:41 am

----------------------------

wrote in message*> The turnon transient isn't similar to normal AC operation*

Yep. It was my habit to do power surge testing on newbuilt electronics with a switch and large nearly-unladen transformer, because every tenth onswitch of the transformer generated hum/arcing on the switch and significant powerline transients. If my box survived that, I figured it'd work fine in the real-world environment. HF from the switch arcing, 1-cycle dropouts from the transformer going into saturation, maybe a bit of overvoltage (until the arc formed)... that power outlet was guaranteed hostile enough for a good test.

The fuse went open with no load, so I assumed the problem to be saturation of the core, and just looked at the scenario for that one effect, and found a likely treatment. I understand that maximum-voltage switching is another treatment (there are solid-state relays for this). ---------------------------- While it appears to me that the load will do little to reduce saturation effects, the concept of maximum voltage switching could be very effective as such switching will be at flux zeros corresponding to the initial conditions in the core- eliminating the transient (assuming no residual flux).

wrote in message

Yep. It was my habit to do power surge testing on newbuilt electronics with a switch and large nearly-unladen transformer, because every tenth onswitch of the transformer generated hum/arcing on the switch and significant powerline transients. If my box survived that, I figured it'd work fine in the real-world environment. HF from the switch arcing, 1-cycle dropouts from the transformer going into saturation, maybe a bit of overvoltage (until the arc formed)... that power outlet was guaranteed hostile enough for a good test.

The fuse went open with no load, so I assumed the problem to be saturation of the core, and just looked at the scenario for that one effect, and found a likely treatment. I understand that maximum-voltage switching is another treatment (there are solid-state relays for this). ---------------------------- While it appears to me that the load will do little to reduce saturation effects, the concept of maximum voltage switching could be very effective as such switching will be at flux zeros corresponding to the initial conditions in the core- eliminating the transient (assuming no residual flux).

--

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- posted on January 21, 2008, 10:56 pm

Enjoy
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
SEX LIFE OF THE ELECTRON
(STORY OF MILLIE HENRY AND MICRO FARAD)

ONE NIGHT WHEN HIS CHARGE WAS PRETTY HIGH, MICRO FARAD DECIDED TO GET A CUTE LITTLE COIL TO LET HIM DISCHARGE.

HE PICKED UP MILLIE AND TOOK HER FOR A RIDE ON HIS POWER AMPLIFIED MEGACYCLE. THEY RODE ACROSS THE WHEATSTONE BRIDGE, AROUND THE SINE WAVE AND STOPPED IN A MAGNETIC FIELD BY A SMALL FLOWING CURRENT.

MICRO FARAD, ATTRACTED BY MILLIE'S WAVES, SOON HAD HER AT MINIMUM RESISTANCE AND HER FIELD FULLY CHARGED. HE ALSO HAD HER FREQUENCY LOWERED AND PULLED OUT HIS HIGH VOLTAGE PROBE. HE INSERTED IT IN PARALLEL AND BEGAN TO SHORT CIRCUIT HER SHUNT.

FULLY CHARGED MILLIE SAID MHO, MHO, GIVE ME MHO. WITH TUBE AT MAXIMUM CONDUCTION AND HER COIL VIBRATING FROM EXCESSIVE CURRENT, SHE SOON REACHED PEAK. THE EXCESSIVE CURRENT HAD HER SHUNT PRETTY HOT AND MICRO FARAD'S CAPACITOR WAS RAPIDLY DISCHARGING EVERY ELECTRON.

THEY FLUXED ALL NIGHT LONG, TRYING VARIOUS CONNECTIONS AND CIRCUITS UNTIL HER MAGNETIC FIELD HAD LOST ALL OF ITS FIELD STRENGTH.

AFTERWARDS MILLIE TRIED SELF INDUCTION AND CHARGED HER FIELD; HOWEVER, MILLIE REVERSED HER POLARITY AND WHEN MICRO FARAD STARTED FLUXING AGAIN, THEY BLEW EACH OTHERS FUSES.

POWER HAS BEEN CONSUMED.

WORK HAS BEEN DONE.

SO WATT.

ONE NIGHT WHEN HIS CHARGE WAS PRETTY HIGH, MICRO FARAD DECIDED TO GET A CUTE LITTLE COIL TO LET HIM DISCHARGE.

HE PICKED UP MILLIE AND TOOK HER FOR A RIDE ON HIS POWER AMPLIFIED MEGACYCLE. THEY RODE ACROSS THE WHEATSTONE BRIDGE, AROUND THE SINE WAVE AND STOPPED IN A MAGNETIC FIELD BY A SMALL FLOWING CURRENT.

MICRO FARAD, ATTRACTED BY MILLIE'S WAVES, SOON HAD HER AT MINIMUM RESISTANCE AND HER FIELD FULLY CHARGED. HE ALSO HAD HER FREQUENCY LOWERED AND PULLED OUT HIS HIGH VOLTAGE PROBE. HE INSERTED IT IN PARALLEL AND BEGAN TO SHORT CIRCUIT HER SHUNT.

FULLY CHARGED MILLIE SAID MHO, MHO, GIVE ME MHO. WITH TUBE AT MAXIMUM CONDUCTION AND HER COIL VIBRATING FROM EXCESSIVE CURRENT, SHE SOON REACHED PEAK. THE EXCESSIVE CURRENT HAD HER SHUNT PRETTY HOT AND MICRO FARAD'S CAPACITOR WAS RAPIDLY DISCHARGING EVERY ELECTRON.

THEY FLUXED ALL NIGHT LONG, TRYING VARIOUS CONNECTIONS AND CIRCUITS UNTIL HER MAGNETIC FIELD HAD LOST ALL OF ITS FIELD STRENGTH.

AFTERWARDS MILLIE TRIED SELF INDUCTION AND CHARGED HER FIELD; HOWEVER, MILLIE REVERSED HER POLARITY AND WHEN MICRO FARAD STARTED FLUXING AGAIN, THEY BLEW EACH OTHERS FUSES.

POWER HAS BEEN CONSUMED.

WORK HAS BEEN DONE.

SO WATT.

- posted on January 22, 2008, 4:30 am

Lew Hodgett wrote:

pulse, throb.

pulse, throb.

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