Looks like PC is following the path of B&D

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About 35-40 years ago B&D was a decent brand tool. Then they started color coding their power tools into cheaper built units. Looks like they are leading PC sown that same path. The tools even look kinda B&D'ish.
For less than $160 you can get an 18v combo kit including a Drill/Driver, Circle saw, Recip saw, and Flash light.
Or, a 120 volt 13amp circular saw with laser for $59.99.
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/content/binary/PCPrices.pdf
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/New+Tools+From+Porter+Cable.aspx
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Yup! And another one gone, another bites the dust..... I already am well aware of PC having done the moonwalk for a while. Their production routers used to last me a few (as much as 8) years, then the later ones they were dead in (max) 2 years. Bearings. That all happened when the motors became too small to fit in the older bases. Crap. Just another example of idiots at the wheel.
I won't even bundle them with B & D and Ryobi and such.. When you buy today's B & D, you KNOW it's crap...to put a name like PC on it, is downright misleading.
Those $ 200K MBA's are doing a bang-up job, eh? " Look, boss, I saved us another 2 million by going to even cheaper plastic!!"
No wonder that the more serious (professional) tool jockeys are spending extra for Festool. You just can't trust the other guys anymore.
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"Robatoy" wrote

Yep ... Last PC router I bought was PC plunge model circa 2005 ... POS, with more plastic on it than Pamela Anderson. I have to use wrenches for setup because all the plastic knobs/parts broke.
Hardly worth the fire sale price I paid for it ... at a garage sale!

... and another example of what they KNOW an idiot public will accept!
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On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 05:55:22 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy

That was in the not so distant past when they used to wind their own motors in house in Jackson, TN.

Now they buy those sets from whatever offshore source.........

Makes me want to cry.

I can assure you those guys have never used a tool.

See reference to crying above.
Frank
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Leon wrote:

It's funny and I knew it would happen, I even called PC back when B&D bought them and had a hell of a time finding someone to talk to about my concerns. He assured me they were separate identities and PC would only improve towards the professionals. I told him I was not convinced. I also let him know how many tools I had and what percentage were PC and the story of my 14.4 drill/driver which has been going strong for 7 years with only battery replacements.
I remember all to well what AMC did to Harley Davidson. Hopefully PC will get the same message and grab it back from B&D shit.
Rich
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IIRC, and please correct me if I am wrong about this, isn't there some large corporation that owns B&D, PC, DeWalt, and Delta tools?
So, when are this mega corporation going to buy out Milwaukee tools, and/ or Makita (SP?) Tools, or will Hitachi buy out all of them?
I blame it all on Sears and Craftsman tools.
Phil
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On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 12:24:10 -0500, Phil Again

Black and Decker is the large corporation that owns the above mentioned brands.

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This is the high points of B&D's history, a la B&D.
It gives an overview of their larger acquisitions, and the last paragraph is pretty interesting. I didn't know they owned DeVilbiss. Sadly, they don't list everything they own.
http://tinyurl.com/ywp8kk
Ironically, searching around on this subject, it appears that B&D is actually a company with no centralized form of ownership itself. It is a "hive" that is so large and so diverse that there are many different investment companies such as Barclay's, Vanguard Funds, etc., that own large chunks of this behemoth, including a lot of stock in private hands.
The tools they sell are nothing more than another page on the portfolio, right after microwaves, weedeaters, coffee makers, etc.
Sad, indeed.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

tools made in all categories, sadly probably not. Guess this is called progress. Can't imagine what tools will be available in 20 years.
Rich
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wrote:

Not likely that 12 company will build the best of everything, there never has been. Festool may be the closest today. Tools today will probably be better than they are today. IMHO tools today are better than they were 20 years ago, they have just change names. GM and Ford used to be considered top notch, Now Honda and Toyota fill the position and both of those are much better than GM and Ford ever thought of being.
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On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 21:04:37 +0000, evodawg wrote:

Steel City tools seem to be pretty good. Not up to Festool quality, but neither are their prices.
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On Sat, 2 Aug 2008 13:14:18 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

They own DAPC. That's DeVilbiss only in very small print. Part of the agreement when the compressor part of the company was split from DeVilbiss, the makers of high quality spray coating equipment.
Frank

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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

This is the nature of publicly traded companies. You'll find that the same is true for IBM and GM and any other big company that is listed on the stock exchanges. If you want a piece of it all you have to do is call your broker and pay the price, currently about 60 bucks a share.

This is also true for Bosch, which is privately held. Most of their income comes from auto parts, not tools.

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It was bought about three years ago by an investment group named TTI. Until that time, there was no such animal as a Chiawanese Milwaukee tool. TTI owns several brand names of tools, and in some cases acts a jobber/manufacturer for other different companies.

A great deal of Hitachi is owned by B&D, hence the bizarro colorations, decals, and plastic gizmos glued all over their tools these days. I think at this time (not sure, no cite) that most Hitachi and Skil tools come off the same Chinese production lines.

Sorry, it happened long before that. I know it is popular to bitch slap Sears as an easy target, but this all started well before Sears started reducing the quality of their own branded products.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Quite a trick for B&D to own "a great deal" of Hitachi, considering that Hitachi is about 20 times the size. What B&D did do in 2002 was enter into a "cooperative business arrangement" with Hitachi. The current B&D annual report does not even contain the word "Hitachi".

Funny that if the reason is B&D ownership, Dewalt, Porter Cable, and Delta, all of which _are_ owned by Black and Decker, do not have similar "bizarro colorations, decals, and plastic gizmos glued all over their tools".

Regardless of the brand, the Japanese produce a surprising amount of stuff in China. But unlike American manufacturers seeking to have stuff made over there, the Japanese know how to get results out of recalcitrant Chinese.
Incidentally, you are aware are you not that Skil is owned by Bosch, not Black and Decker, and that Bosch is a privately held company based in Germany?

You are aware, are you not, that those "low quality made in China" Craftsman hand tools are all stamped "Made in USA", not on a sticker but in the die?
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Cool, Dude! With you around I feel like I have my own editor, fact checker, and wife all in one shot! Thanks for the careful reread.
My comments were made in simple idle conversation with my Saturday morning coffee, but once again I appreciate your efforts to bring my meanderings up to the expected standards of this group.

Our perspectives might be quite different. I had read somewhere that B&D (sorry, no cite, but I am sure you will supply a "yeah" or "nay" as needed!) had bought a stake in the tool arm of Hitachi America which was (in my understanding) formed in order to manufacture and distribute their current line of consumer tools.
It is perspective; for example (don't apply these to Hitachi/B&D when you are looking the numbers up, I pulled them from the air for purposed of illustration) if company X buys into a family member company for 200 million, that may be a lot for the family member company. If the parent company of the family member is worth a trillion dollars, it isn't worth mentioning.
What B&D did do in 2002 was

Wouldn't argue that one. I have no doubt you have read all umpteen thousand pages of the subsequent back up documents, so I believe you.

I wonder... it is possible that they have resisted putting all that stuff on DeWalt, PC, etc. because some still consider them professional tools? Are you saying that if they are all owned by the same company they should all look alike and not target specific markets? My personal opinion (ha!) is that with today's tools, the marketing department identifies the niche, and the tool, the design of the tool including how and where it is made are all done with the niche (dollar specific) in mind. You could be right, though. Other forces could be at work.

No, am not aware, I am not, that Bosch is privately held. Bosch GmBH is held by the Robert Bosch foundation, and <10% of the company is held by the Bosch family. I am not trying to pick nits here, but I didn't want you to fall into the same hole I did when I said "Hitachi" and you took it to mean the entirety of Hitachi and all its permutations and holdings.
I am guessing here, so feel free to correct me if you think I am wrong (seriously... feel free! ;^) ) but I would think that you know that many of the Chinese manufacturers of low end products are simply jobbers. They bid on jobs like I do. I have a friend of a friend that gets a trade magazine from manufacturers in China, and you can get anything you want made there with your name on it.
Take a look at this, and go to the bottom of the page. http://tinyurl.com/5llmun
Any of that crap look familiar? No telling how many different brands we know are made side by side on the same lines.

Once again, I am not aware, I am not. I looked at my cordless drill and it says "Made in China" on a decal. Same with the light, same with the saw (bundle kit - $129). No die marks anywhere... I even checked the charger. I am sure they are Craftsman, though as I purchased them there myself.
Makes me wonder. Now I am afraid to look at the rest of my tiny Craftsman collection.
Still though, I wouldn't blame Sears for the rest of the manufacturers making lousy tools, no matter where they are made.
I used a lot of really crappy tools and saw a whole lot more when the venerated Rockwell tools decided (no, I don't know who did it or why) to come up with a homeowner line. It was as bad as anything out there, and the worst tools that I think (here's my opinion, no facts) probably the worst tools mass manufactured (my definition of mass may be different than yours!) in the USA for sale to the public.
Robert
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On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:02:01 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

He said hand tools, not power tools.
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wrote:

But the subject was power tools not hand tools.
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Hmmmm...... last time I used my cordless drill, I used my hands to hold it and guide it. Using the drill press, I cannot hold it and use it.
When I use my circular saw, I hold it in my hands and guide it; my table saw stays in place and I can't move it.
Are you saying that a cordless drill is actually a stationary tool? Are you saying that a cordless drill is not a hand tool?
If my cordless drill is supposed to be mounted on in some device to make it stationary, or if it is not supposed to be held in my hands when I drill, drive screws, sand or polish with it, I need a diagram on its use as I have been using them the wrong way for years.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

If the power doesn't come from your muscles it's not a "hand tool".
A cordless drill or a circular saw is a "portable power tool", not a "hand tool".
At least if you're looking them up in a tool catalog that's how you're going to find them organized.
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