life of a tree revealed in the rings

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VBG!
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On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 08:00:44 -0500, Mike Marlow

ROTFL! The first time I was in Paris, and I was using the commode, not the "B" just to be clear, I flushed the commode, and the room I was in was on the 5th floor, the water literally leapt out through the seat. Not a pleasant experience.
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Are ~those people~ the same ones who believe our square planet is only 6000 years old and the baby Jesus put all those dinosaur fossils here ~just to test our faith~ ?
--
Religion was invented when the first
con-man met the first fool. ~ Mark Twain
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On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 06:39:11 -0800, "Existential Angst"

No, and this is not the place for that type of discussion.
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On 01/05/2016 6:17 PM, Leon wrote:

The US FPL Wood Handbook -- <http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?grouping_id 0> See chap 3 for botany lessons. Short version is, in temperate climates such as most of the US, there is an annual growth and dormant season and so the growth rings can be associated with that yearly cycle. How prevalent they are is basically determined by the variety of the tree itself, spacing is related to environmental and local conditions. But it makes note that this is a temperate-zone characteristic and so to refer them as "annual rings" isn't necessarily accurate; use the term "growth rings" or "growth increment" instead.
OTOH, in many tropical woods it's essentially impossible to visually detect growth rings altho I note in the 2010 edition it includes the following: "... continuing research in this area has uncovered several characteristics whereby growth rings can be correlated with seasonality changes in some tropical species (Worbes 1995, 1999; Callado and others 2001)."
Shorter version is R. B. Hoadley's Understanding Wood, Taunton Press...although I don't believe it's been revised; there's certainly little to fault for a US audience and domestic woods on the subject albeit it's not a botany textbook, either (nor, of course, is the Handbook, but it is in more depth than Hoadley).
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On 01/06/2016 9:34 AM, dpb wrote: ...

First sentence 2nd paragraph is garbled -- I changed horses in midsentence on what was planning on writing and didn't get all the first outta' there that shoulda' been --
What was intended to say was impossible had to to with associating growth rings with a necessarily annual cycle in tropical regions, not that the growth increments are not visible.
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You might want to rethink that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology
https://www.classzone.com/books/earth_science/terc/content/investigations/es2905/es2905page01.cfm
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On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 03:16:54 +0000, Spalted Walt

These pages are full of errors, and a good deal of it is written by those with narrow visions who think that what they see here in the US applies globally. They have pulled in some historic notes in order to add weight to their arguments, but they failed and the pages reflect it by asking for confirmations, etc.
See my reply to Leon, where it is easy to see that it is the growth season or lack of it that gives the rings. Sometimes multiple rings from one year to the next.
I have seen mentions of this in some of our national parks.

year"
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On Tue, 05 Jan 2016 16:15:26 -0800

it is not that simple some can be decades and longer as always it depends on many factors
dendrochronology is the study of the rings
there are photos of giant sequoia cross sections marked with historic events that are fun to see
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On 01/06/2016 9:55 AM, Electric Comet wrote:

An individual growth increment? I'm certainly not aware of anything that shows such a pattern. Reference????

Spacing, yes. Actual ring structure itself is simply a characteristic of the individual species. Now, yes, while there are lots of species, there are a (relatively few) characteristics into which individual trees fall.
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On 01/06/2016 10:22 AM, dpb wrote:

Or perhaps are you simply referring to a period of time such as a prolonged drought or the like that can bring a period of growth to near standstill for as long as the particular event lasts and sometimes for sometime thereafter before the specimen really fully recovers (presuming it survives and does do so eventually, of course)?
That sort of thing certainly happens for any number of reasons, weather patterns being the most notable for a given specimen. Over a longer period of time over a number of generations one may see other more longer-term trends although one may have to have some additional help in that the forest was uprooted in a devastating event such a a flood, buried in an anerobic environment and became fossilized or otherwise preserved in order for us to find rings to count and ponder over their meaning...a few thousand years for individual trees is their lifetime, a mere blink of the eye in geologic time.
The bristlecone pine is, afaik, the longest-lived single tree, reaching into the 5-6,000 yr neighborhood. The giant sequoias are mere youngsters in comparison in the 3-4,000 range.
What's really unusual is that the Pando quaking aspen grove is the oldest overall by a wide margin (80,000 to to perhaps as much as 1,000,000 by some estimates) but it's not the part you see; it (they? :) ) is a clonal colony of a single male quaking aspen. Individual stems are more like only 100-130 years in age but they come up from the underground root system, not by flowering/seed production. The whole grove of some 100 acres and 40-50,000 "stems" are identical clones genetically.
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There are tree's like that in La Jolla, Calif. To the naked eye people mistake them for scrub pine due to their small stature, but some wise person recognized them for what they are not too awful long ago, and now they are protected. The only spot, I think, in NA
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On 01/06/2016 4:47 PM, OFWW wrote:

I'd like to know what those are; the quaking aspen are certainly NA, Pando is in south-central UT, not far from Fishlake NF...
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http://www.livescience.com/29152-oldest-tree-in-world.html
Not the ones I was thinking of in Torrey Pines, Calif. http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/3450/
Now I know I read some articles about the find and as I recall the small tree, which was like a natural Japanese trained stunted tree, that grew from ancient root systems not seeds.
Can't seem to find any info on it at the moment. grrrrr.
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On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 10:22:43 -0600

look at the sequoias
there are some great pics around with markings of historic events over the life of the tree the sequoias are special for sure and the annual ring does not apply as yo noted it is the growth ring and it can span decades trees are incredible the blue gum and sequoias are more so due to their size
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On 01/06/2016 4:22 PM, Electric Comet wrote: ...

A _given_ growth ring for a sequoia (or any other tree in the temperate climatic zone) will absolutely _NOT_ span "decades". It'll be in accord with the growing seasons which are, and have been for the life of these trees, annual cycles.
It takes a place without these cycles for there to not be any correlation; that ain't where the redwoods are.
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On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 16:45:44 -0600

fyi you are disagreeing with what dendrochronologists have determined by careful analysis
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On 01/06/2016 6:40 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

Show me the research that says that.
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On 01/06/2016 6:40 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

In reality, _IN TEMPERATE ZONES_, the likelihood is that there may be an additional ring or two now and then as OFWW notes may have occurred in his region owing to an indication or dormancy and renewed growth again more than once during the calendar year from an aberration from normal weather patterns of sufficient magnitude and duration as to actually cause the growth pattern to mimic another year. Similarly, particularly in drier climates it's possible that a period of dormancy is caused by drought that if relieved during the normal growing season may cause another growth ring to be present that might otherwise not be.
It's also possible for there to have been an extended dormancy giving rise to a missing ring for a given year; I'd posit that for such to have been true for a period of decades is just not likely to be so albeit there's a possibility that like in tropical regions the size of the ring may be so small as to be essentially indetectable. I'd expect that few specimens will survive such an instance if it were to have occurred at which point it's pretty clear the next ring will span infinity.
Actual dating is done via statistical averaging of many samples and normalized against alternative references to become absolute. There are several established series internationally recognized that a given specimen from an area can be compared against for such dating.
But, the possibility of a time span of "decades" between growth rings of any of the common trees we in rec.woodworking would even know existed and growing in NA or any similar temperate climate is essentially zero.
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On Thu, 07 Jan 2016 14:43:01 -0600

would not consider sequoia to be common it is the only hexaploid tree it is the tallest tree
much prefer the dendrochronologist analysis over yours or rec.woodworking
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