LED lights under insulation

[krw]

Exactly. If they're not used as designed in fixtures that they're designed to work in, that heat may not be able to escape.

[whit3rd]

Your finger is a good heatsink, but a poor sensor. The LEDs produce more heat than light, and there are other components (resistors, one per three LEDs, typically on strip lights) that dissipate power, too.

One watt of light is about what a 2 inch magnifier collects on a sunny day; that would get your finger very toasty, even if there weren't ANY waste heat.

[nailshooter41]

You aren't wrong. I took a class last summer on LED lighting as one of my customers was looking into converting about 80 fixtures.

First, it is unbelievable to me just how many poorly made lights and fixtur es there are. Worse, they aren't labeled properly, so if you are focused o n wattage, energy savings, getting the right Kelvin for your needs, etc., y ou might forget to get some essentials.

First, get a UL approved fixture if at all possible, and try to get a fixtu re from a well known manufacturer. Same thing with the bulbs if bought sep arately. (No need to correct the statement; for purpose of clarity I juxta posed "bulbs" for Light Emitting Diode".)

My electrician and the guys that gave the seminar all advised to NOT insula te over the fixtures. There are designations that I don't believe are indu stry standards, but more like lingo such as AT, IC, WT, and a combination o f all. AT is air tight, IC is insulation compatible, and WT is water tight . Regardless of designation, I was shown pictures of fires started in ceili ngs with LEDs that were supposed to be insulation compatible.

Different LEDs do different things, are made to different standards and per form differently from one another in use even though their specs read the s ame. I wouldn't want a fixture that tested out at XXX degrees of heat when in operation that could develop and few degrees more heat and reach the fl ashpoint of wood framing or the paper on insulation or anything else that c ould burn.

My electrician and insulation guys recommend six inches around each light, regardless of its designation.

An easier fix would be what the LED lighting guy recommended (the pictures say it all) AFTER you make sure you have a IC compatible fixture:

=utf-8

Robert

[Leon]

My point is that if my finger can't feel any heat from the LED ribbon or LED it is not going to be hot enough to burn the wood it is attached to.

[swalker]

The light that I am going to use, which will be wired into and supported by a box is item# 749834 at Lowe's. I have had conversations with 3 electricians, all of whom do work that is required to be in accordance with code in several nearby cities and none said that they would have a concern about insulation being over the box. None said they have ever received a negative comment about the method of attachment or wiring from an inspector. I live in the county and there is no county inspector or permit requirement but the electrician I am going to use will certify that all work is to code.

Thanks for the comments.

[Brewster]

The installation document for those lights specifies you only need a box. Being truly flush mount, ceiling insulation doesn't really matter since it will be on the other side of the drywall. The heat is dissipated over the body of the lamp as it has no heat dissipation elements that extend into the ceiling.

If it were me, I'd just do as you have planned. Install a flush mounted ceiling light fixture box of appropriate volume for the wiring and be done with it.

=BR

[swalker]

I didn't see Nailshooter's comments until I had posted my last comment. Ponder time.

Jim

[nailshooter41]

Jim, it's great to gather all the opinions you need that will verify they r ead the manufacturer's data and concur. Good for the fixture makers that t hey have an audience. But the fixture isn't the part that generates heat.

Buy a great fixture, and take your chances with the bulb. The fixtures are manufactured to withstand the heat generated by a PROPERLY working LED. T he manufacturer of the fixture will assume no responsibility for defective bulbs. 2-3 years ago there was a recall by the government for over a half million bulbs, all manufactured to industry standards, but after many, many failures the gov required an industry recall. All came from one manufactu rer, but the lamps were sold under many big brand names.

Now that LEDs are the way to go, who knows how many manufacturers there are and how well the bulbs are made? A few degrees hotter may or may not harm a fixture, and may or may not cause a fire. You can slap the fixtures in, cover them up and take your chances.

The point is that no cover will help much (unless you get those big ceramic hoods) if there is a complete LED failure that causes massive overheating. But since LEDs are manufactured to certain standards that DO NOT include how hot they get when in use, why take that risk?

Why take a chance with your property when protection is so cheap? I am not the wild man some here are, ready to trust Chinese manufacturing standards simply because they put their claims in writing. I wouldn't know what to do if I burned down a client's house because I trusted a box label.

And seriously, isn't your peace of mind worth $15 a light? Just in case yo ur insulator wasn't all that careful, the light fixture was a tiny bit c*ck ed when installed, or the LED lamps you got burned fifty degrees hotter tha n anticipated... or all three events occurred. (Trust me... I'm a contract or, those things happen even when you are watching your guys...)

|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D22-Insulation|&gclid=Cj0KEQjw09C5BRDy972s6q2y4egBEiQA5_guv4TTb4wFiYt1nEJ_2MMYgGghkxEvus1BRj79MZkGX40aAlTw8P8HAQ&g clsrc=aw.ds

or

Robert

[Brewster]

they read the manufacturer's data and concur. Good for the fixture makers that they have an audience. But the fixture isn't the part that generates heat.

are manufactured to withstand the heat generated by a PROPERLY working LED. The manufacturer of the fixture will assume no responsibility for defective bulbs. 2-3 years ago there was a recall by the government for over a half million bulbs, all manufactured to industry standards, but after many, many failures the gov required an industry recall. All came from one manufacturer, but the lamps were sold under many big brand names.

there are and how well the bulbs are made? A few degrees hotter may or may not harm a fixture, and may or may not cause a fire. You can slap the fixtures in, cover them up and take your chances.

ceramic hoods) if there is a complete LED failure that causes massive overheating. But since LEDs are manufactured to certain standards that DO NOT include how hot they get when in use, why take that risk?

not the wild man some here are, ready to trust Chinese manufacturing standards simply because they put their claims in writing. I wouldn't know what to do if I burned down a client's house because I trusted a box label.

case your insulator wasn't all that careful, the light fixture was a tiny bit cocked when installed, or the LED lamps you got burned fifty degrees hotter than anticipated... or all three events occurred. (Trust me... I'm a contractor, those things happen even when you are watching your guys...)

|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D22-Insulation|&gclid=Cj0KEQjw09C5BRDy972s6q2y4egBEiQA5_guv4TTb4wFiYt1nEJ_2MMYgGghkxEvus1BRj79MZkGX40aAlTw8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

I agree 100% with all this for recessed and/or fixture (removable 'bulb') lights.

The device being installed appears to be a monolithic unit (LED/bulb is built into the flush mount device). A valid UL listing would cover the entire device, much like any other device that produces heat. Of course a UL listing is just to confirm basic safety and doesn't address quality.

-BR