LED lights can produce a great amount of heat, so I would lean on the
side of you being wrong. The better way to look at it is belt and
suspenders approach, then if it catches fire you are in a better
position for your insurance claim.
I'm not sure how he's going to connect the lights but there is likely
a "listed" way to do it. The light probably requires some sort of
fixture or electrical box. Doing it any other way would be a code
violation. I'm with you. Do it right.
On Sunday, May 8, 2016 at 6:22:27 AM UTC-5, swalker wrote:
You aren't wrong. I took a class last summer on LED lighting as one of my
customers was looking into converting about 80 fixtures.
First, it is unbelievable to me just how many poorly made lights and fixtur
es there are. Worse, they aren't labeled properly, so if you are focused o
n wattage, energy savings, getting the right Kelvin for your needs, etc., y
ou might forget to get some essentials.
First, get a UL approved fixture if at all possible, and try to get a fixtu
re from a well known manufacturer. Same thing with the bulbs if bought sep
arately. (No need to correct the statement; for purpose of clarity I juxta
posed "bulbs" for Light Emitting Diode".)
My electrician and the guys that gave the seminar all advised to NOT insula
te over the fixtures. There are designations that I don't believe are indu
stry standards, but more like lingo such as AT, IC, WT, and a combination o
f all. AT is air tight, IC is insulation compatible, and WT is water tight
. Regardless of designation, I was shown pictures of fires started in ceili
ngs with LEDs that were supposed to be insulation compatible.
Different LEDs do different things, are made to different standards and per
form differently from one another in use even though their specs read the s
ame. I wouldn't want a fixture that tested out at XXX degrees of heat when
in operation that could develop and few degrees more heat and reach the fl
ashpoint of wood framing or the paper on insulation or anything else that c
My electrician and insulation guys recommend six inches around each light,
regardless of its designation.
An easier fix would be what the LED lighting guy recommended (the pictures
say it all) AFTER you make sure you have a IC compatible fixture:
On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 8:11:05 AM UTC-5, swalker wrote:
Jim, it's great to gather all the opinions you need that will verify they r
ead the manufacturer's data and concur. Good for the fixture makers that t
hey have an audience. But the fixture isn't the part that generates heat.
Buy a great fixture, and take your chances with the bulb. The fixtures are
manufactured to withstand the heat generated by a PROPERLY working LED. T
he manufacturer of the fixture will assume no responsibility for defective
bulbs. 2-3 years ago there was a recall by the government for over a half
million bulbs, all manufactured to industry standards, but after many, many
failures the gov required an industry recall. All came from one manufactu
rer, but the lamps were sold under many big brand names.
Now that LEDs are the way to go, who knows how many manufacturers there are
and how well the bulbs are made? A few degrees hotter may or may not harm
a fixture, and may or may not cause a fire. You can slap the fixtures in,
cover them up and take your chances.
The point is that no cover will help much (unless you get those big ceramic
hoods) if there is a complete LED failure that causes massive overheating.
But since LEDs are manufactured to certain standards that DO NOT include
how hot they get when in use, why take that risk?
Why take a chance with your property when protection is so cheap? I am not
the wild man some here are, ready to trust Chinese manufacturing standards
simply because they put their claims in writing. I wouldn't know what to
do if I burned down a client's house because I trusted a box label.
And seriously, isn't your peace of mind worth $15 a light? Just in case yo
ur insulator wasn't all that careful, the light fixture was a tiny bit cock
ed when installed, or the LED lamps you got burned fifty degrees hotter tha
n anticipated... or all three events occurred. (Trust me... I'm a contract
or, those things happen even when you are watching your guys...)
On 5/12/16 11:10 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
makers that they have an audience. But the fixture isn't the part that
LED. The manufacturer of the fixture will assume no responsibility for
defective bulbs. 2-3 years ago there was a recall by the government for
over a half million bulbs, all manufactured to industry standards, but
after many, many failures the gov required an industry recall. All came
from one manufacturer, but the lamps were sold under many big brand names.
may not harm a fixture, and may or may not cause a fire. You can slap
the fixtures in, cover them up and take your chances.
overheating. But since LEDs are manufactured to certain standards that
DO NOT include how hot they get when in use, why take that risk?
standards simply because they put their claims in writing. I wouldn't
know what to do if I burned down a client's house because I trusted a
tiny bit cocked when installed, or the LED lamps you got burned fifty
degrees hotter than anticipated... or all three events occurred. (Trust
me... I'm a contractor, those things happen even when you are watching
The device being installed appears to be a monolithic unit (LED/bulb is
built into the flush mount device). A valid UL listing would cover the
entire device, much like any other device that produces heat. Of course
a UL listing is just to confirm basic safety and doesn't address quality.
The light that I am going to use, which will be wired into and
supported by a box is item# 749834 at Lowe's.
I have had conversations with 3 electricians, all of whom do work that
is required to be in accordance with code in several nearby cities and
none said that they would have a concern about insulation being over
the box. None said they have ever received a negative comment about
the method of attachment or wiring from an inspector.
I live in the county and there is no county inspector or permit
requirement but the electrician I am going to use will certify that
all work is to code.
Thanks for the comments.
The installation document for those lights specifies you only need a
box. Being truly flush mount, ceiling insulation doesn't really matter
since it will be on the other side of the drywall. The heat is
dissipated over the body of the lamp as it has no heat dissipation
elements that extend into the ceiling.
If it were me, I'd just do as you have planned. Install a flush mounted
ceiling light fixture box of appropriate volume for the wiring and be
done with it.
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