Lap joint on end of 2x4?

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Winston wrote:

1. Douglas fir isn't weak. Certainly, there are others stronger but not softwoods AFAIK. You are lucky to live where you can get it easily and (I trust) inexpensively.
2. If the mating surfaces are reasonably flat your joints will be fine with or without the screws. Screws are handy to clamp them together while the glue dries though and won't hurt anything.
The biggest problem with screws is that it is next to impossible to find convenient sources of hot dipped galvanized screws. Outdoors, plain steel or electro-plated steel will rust; given time (months to years) the rusted areas will eventually deteriorate the wood. Bronze, stainless steel and Monel don't rust. ____________

Not really. What is complicated is the differing opinions. The best opinions are based on experience.
--

dadiOH
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On 4/27/2010 9:10 AM, dadiOH wrote:

(...)
It does require careful sorting to find lumber that is halfway clear and free of bark and chips, though.
Heh! The Home Depot lumber guy apparently didn't like me 'cherry picking' his pile of 2 x 4's very much. (I put back my rejects neatly so I don't understand his attitude.)
I looked up after loading my cart and saw that he had closed the gates on both ends of the aisle, caging me in. He re-appeared and asked if I wanted out, so I told him 'Yes, unless you want to buy me lunch'!. :)

OK.
On recommendation from the sales guy, I bought a couple boxes of 'Primeguard Plus' square / phillips drive screws. They are said to be good for outdoor use and to be compatible with the chems in pressure treated lumber. I hope they will be OK, because they drive like a dream, even into dry wood.
(...)

I will go with Plan 'A' (lap frame corners, glued and screwed).
I've been really lucky with the rest of the fence so perhaps this will work, too.
Thanks!
--Winston
--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 09:48:48 -0700, the infamous Winston

I've seen ten year old plain doug fir decking which has survived better than pressure treated lumber here in rainy Oregano. It's good schtuff, Maynard.

Tell him to kiss your ass, and shop at a _real_ lumberyard next time, Pooh.

Wow.
Nahm's brad nailah won't help in this instance.

Yeah, those are the epoxy coated screws I complained about. I haven't seen any failures in PT wood yet, including the old CCA treated stuff, but I will be moving entirely into galv once again as soon as my 25 lbs of Primeguard is gone. If you drive one in and have to remove it for any reason, discard it and put a new one in, though. You'll see bare steel there, the reason you discard it.

There ya go.

G'luck!
-- Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
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On 4/27/2010 6:47 PM, Larry Jaques wrote: (...)

OK. Thanks, Larry
--Winston
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:44:26 -0700, the infamous Winston

Doug fir isn't used in PT. PT is the cheapest, weakest wood they can find, the second grade SPF. (spruce/pine/fir, other than Douglas) Doug fir is an extremely strong pineywood, drying hard enough to bend green sinkers in a single pound.

Ayup.
Eek!
Coated metal is a good choice, butcha can use wood or plastic decking over it.

Of course. The Wreck is just like Wreck.Metalheads, only different.
-- Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
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dpb wrote:

Over 40 years, I have made hundreds of them. None have ever failed whether inside or outside.
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:14:21 -0500, the infamous snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:

Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return stroke, huh? <chortle>

Bbbut, that's awfully tricky to do.

Yes you do need flat. Wavy surfaces don't glue-up well. Curved is OK if they mate, but "fairly flat" is a necessity.

True, try things until one "fits" your style.

[One could also set the depth stop in an SCMS (sliding compound miter saw) and cut them on one of those, Pooh.]
-- Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
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On 4/27/2010 6:42 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

I will be all set during the 'big crunch'!

Indeed.
That is all but impossible for me. You should see some of the unintentional angles I've placed along axes over the years using various saws. Great for making stakes but I'm fresh out of vampires. Very discouraging.

Sometimes I forget to just walk over to the proper machine in my 10k foot^2 wood shop, like you do on your show, Norm. :)
http://www.klockit.com/itm_img/49597.jpg
But seriously, I'm trying to limit myself to only one new tool per project.
--Winston
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He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
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Ever heard of the Omni Dual Saw? Same idea... except I don't know if they'd ever tried it going backwards.
"Our saw cuts so well backwards, just imagine what it could do forwards!"
:-)
Puckdroper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

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Awright, wiseacre! You *do* know that somebody actually makes a hand circular saw with two *counter-rotating* blades on it, don't you?

No, you do _not_ need flat. Consider a dovetail joint -- no flat surfaces whatsoever. The _only_ requirement is that they mate up well.
The _easiest_ way to ensure a good mating it to make both surfaces flat, but it is -not- a requirement.
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On 04/28/2010 05:56 AM, Robert Bonomi wrote:

Actually a dovetail joint is a bunch of flat surfaces that all mate together. :)
Chris
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On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 06:56:45 -0500, the infamous snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:

ANYTHING Billy Mays sold is wonderful, right? 'Nuff said?

Um, you're kidding, right? _All_ surfaces on dovies are flat. They're just created at an angle which is non-perpendicular and non-parallel to the lumber faces.

If you're using epoxy, that's true. ;)
-- Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
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On Apr 26, 1:48pm, snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
[on making a half-lap joint on board ends]

YES! This is the least energy approach, works with the wood grain to produce the desired shape with simple saw cuts and very quick chisel work. A plane or rabbet plane would easily clean up the split face, if that's not acceptable straight from the chisel.
The cut or cuts are shallow, and a thin kerf blade is appropriate. Gang the boards together and make a Skilsaw (handheld circular saw) kerf on a half dozen at a time. When those are all done, remove the dust mask. True neanders will have a miter saw with depth stops, in handheld back saw style. That will work, too.
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On 4/27/2010 10:58 AM, whit3rd wrote:

Grok that. Thanks!
--Winston
--

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Winston wrote:

SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints in 2x4s, depending on the application.
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On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:

Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.
As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe some "L" StrongTie joints.
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/T-L.asp
Thanks for helping the noob, guys.
--Winston
--

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He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.
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Winston wrote:

My garden gate frame is made of 2x6 PT lumber, half lap joints. It is sizeable, roughly 4' x 6'. It is 12 years old now, joints are fine. Just glued, no screws; not sure what glue I used but most likely Type 2 yellow.
I don't recall what you are making, gate? If so and it is sizeable and heavy your biggest potential problem is sag (2x4s aren't all that strong). A diagonal from the top outside corner to the bottom inside (hinge side) corner will help counter that. Ditto steel straps. See photo here... http://www.cornerhardware.com/howto/ht011.html
If it's a gate and you intend to attach boards to the frame, leave at least 1/8" between the boards; i.e., don't try to fit them together to make a solid wood surface. Reason is they will expand and contract and if they are chock-o-block one to another there is no room to expand.
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dadiOH
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On 4/27/2010 9:27 AM, dadiOH wrote:
(...)

OK now I'm feeling more confident.

Yup. Two fence gates. Each about 44" wide by 60" tall.

Mine will look very similar except that my frame will be thinner by 1" since the 2x4s will lay flat against the covering fence boards just like the gates these will replace.

Yup. My gaps will actually be much wider because I'm overlapping alternating fence boards to imitate the look of a fence. Functional without beauty.
--Winston
--

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On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:06:22 -0500, the infamous Mike Paulsen

Where'd you find PT one-bys, Mike?
-- Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
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Larry Jaques wrote:

Minnesota. The local Menards and Home Depot both stock treated 1x4 and 1x6.
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