Laguna vs MiniMax, a persion observation.

[Leon]

Wellllllll Swingman, Nailshooter, Mrs. Nailshooter, my wife and I got together today and did the WW show in Houston. It was very nice meeting Nailshooter and Mrs. Nailshooter. :~)

I have been going back and forth between the Laguna 16HD and the MiniMax MM16 band saws trying to decide which would be the better buy for me. Last weekend my wife and I went to the MiniMax store in Austin to meet with a rep to see the saw in action. While the service has always been reported as superior, I'll say that my meeting was arranged weeks in advance and e-mail conformations were sent late last week. We arrived Monday morning as expected and they did not have a machine that was in running condition. Basically a 300 mile round trip for nothing. Anyway I will say that the machine did look better than the brochure and the web pictures.

Today I was able to compare the MiniMax MM16 directly to the Laguna 16HD. Both are nice machines and are most likely more than I will need in a band saw but IMHO hands down the Laguna wins.

The MiniMax simply looks like it needs to be finished. The paint and welds look terrible for a $2500 saw. While looks do not affect the performance of a machine I would hope that the machine at least looked new. The sales reps indeed compared their machine to the Laguna but were not factual about the Laguna with respect to saying that you cannot adjust the Laguna fence for drift, which you can. They indicated that the Laguna front fence guide bar was hollow, which it is not. They indicated that the ceramic guides get so hot that they delaminate from the holder. I have my doubts. They did demonstrate that you could grab the upper guide bar to tip the machine over however I cannot think of a reason to use this feature. ;~) Strongly the mobility Johnson bar had a broken wheel and could not be demonstrated. The rep did cut a wide laminated chunk of wood in to a sorta thin veneer slice. The center of the cut was about 3 times thicker than the beginning and end of cut. The MiniMax tension wheel is actually made out of stamped steel and has many exposed edges on the top side. The table tilts off center in relation to the blade. Basically the table insert has to be removed if you tilt the table to a 20 degree or greater angle. The blade ends up about 1/2" from center when the table is tilted to 45 degrees.

The Laguna machines looked new. ;~) I did grab the upper guide bar and it felt plenty sturdy to me however I did not try to tip the saw over to see if the bar would flex. I still cannot see the need to this. :~) The Laguna has a slightly smaller table than the MiniMax. The Laguna has a huge honking 4.5 hp Baldor motor hanging off of the back side. The Laguna produced a smoother resaw cut that was thin enough that the piece of walnut curls in my hand and lays flat on a table. Saw blade tooth marks were almost undetectable. The Laguna was fitted with a Resaw King blade and the MiniMax had a Lennox carbide blade. The Laguna top and bottom doors open at the same time which I thought odd but after opening the doors 1 time I felt that this would not be a problem for me. The upper and lower doors are connected by a square tube that covers the slot that the blade goes through in the spine when removing or replacing the blade. I can see how this might eliminate or lessen the chance of standing up and hitting your head on an open upper door also. The Laguna of course had the 10 point ceramic guides as compared to the European guides on the MiniMax. The blade tension wheel on the Laguna was basically what you would expect as far as being smooth with no thin rough edges however I could not determine if it was metal or plastic. Either way it was much more comfortable cranking up for a blade wider than 1 inch.

Both saws are similar in price however the longer I stood around the more accessories the MiniMax rep threw in. It started off at $2495 for the saw, carbide blade, and delivery on the ground. It ended up at $2495 for the saw, carbide blade, miter fence, mobility kit, and delivery on the ground or the same with 2 carbide blades instead of 1 if I would drive from Houston to Austin and pick it up myself. This is $100 more than just the saw alone. Normally this would total about $2850 + delivery from Austin to Houston.

Laguna offered the saw, Resaw King blade, mobility kit, 3 Swedish Silicon blades, and delivery on the ground for $2595. This is $300 more than just the saw alone. Normally this would total about $3040 Delivered.

I ordered the Laguna and expect to see it the second week in April.

[Enoch Root]

There is no better teacher than experience. So I went ahead and got the Grizzly G0550 (not the G0513x, not a laguna, not anything big or fancy) with a riser kit--damn the uncertainties. I'm waiting on a friend to bring a wrench to fit the riser block on the frame.

It seems very solid and, although I could wiggle the upper wheel left to right a bit when there was no tension on the blade it was solid as a rock with the (quick release) tension lever down (tension applied). Before disassembling the frame it passes the nickel test. (it wasn't particularly level, and I did it on the table base mounting area instead of the table itself, which I won't install until I get the riser block on.

I found a couple bubbles in the paint of the riser block so asked for (and got) a bottle of touch up paint. It was a bit of a bear lifting that cast iron frame up onto the stand after putting the stand together.

If I've never seen a Laguna, or a MiniMax, or a 0513x, are they *really* better than what I've got? :)

Tomorrow I will put it together and, with a timberwolf blade, will try to cut a few sheets of veneer from a 1-3/4" x 8-1/4" block of cocobolo. From the remnant (oh, say 7/8" of that, give or take--yes, using a different blade), a couple saw handles.

er

[Mike Dembroge]

Leon, I've had a L16-HD for 3-4 years now and really like the machine. It's the only BS I've ever owned, so addmittedly, I don't have anything to compare it to. Mine has a 3HP motor on it. Are you sure it's 4.5 now? Maybe they changed this.

I did an overview of my saw when it came, so you could DAG if you're interested.

I have the woodslicer and that's one aspect I'm not 100% pleased with. When my blade arrived, there was a twist at the weld causing a very deliberate "ticking" and scoring in the cuts. Using a caliper, I determined that the blade was twisted at the weld and returned it Laguna promptly replaced it. However, the replacement was so dull, I had to have it resharpened. At this point, I was so frustrated, I didn't quibble about having a new blade sharpened (should have, I know) and it's worked well ever since.

Setting up the machine had very few bumps. I did learn that you have to pull out the red emergency "off" knob in order to get it to run. The fact was not in my manual and I'm not going to admit to how long it took me to figure that one out ;-).

Don't interpret my criticisms as disatisfaction in the saw on my part. I love my machine. I just thought I'd give you a 'head's up" as to some of the difficulties I experienced.

Mike Alameda, CA

[Upscale]

And the clincher for the rest of us will be how closely the delivered model matches the fit, finish and operation of the demonstration model.

[Leon]

The clincher for all of us.

[Leon]

I did not see the model that you have at the Grizzley site. Anyway I sure hope the Laguna is better. :~)

Good Luck.

[Frank Boettcher]

Well congrats! I can't wait for the day I can finally get mine out of storage and set it up.

Frank

[Leon]

Thank you.

I suspect you have been waiting longer than me. :~) My wait basically started in the middle of November.

[Frank Boettcher]

A little longer. Put it in storage 1/05. It was supposed to be set up in new shop by now but Katrina put a kink in that plan.

I do have a Delta 14" in current use though, with all the prototype improvements.

Frank

[Leon]

Where do you live Frank?

[Frank Drackman]

I really don't think that you could go wrong with either saw. I have a Laguna 18" that works fine but if I were going to purchase again I think that I would go with MiniMax.

I don't understand why MiniMax markets it's service as being fantastic. It isn't, and I believe it sets them up for failure. They create expectations that many times they fail to meet. There are lots of message threads on their Yahoo forum from unhappy customers.

[Upscale]

expectations

You're going to have to qualify those statements Frank. You say you'd purchase the Minimax over the Laguna, but then you go onto the next paragraph where you talk about unhappy Minimax customers. Considering you feel that way, what is there about the Laguna that would make you prefer to buy the Minimax?

[Enoch Root]

Yeha, messed up on the model, it's a G0555. I'm having a problem though: can't get the (appropriate) 105" bands around the wheels--I got the riser block with it.

There's an adjustment to be made on the tension bar assembly for the longer blades--just have to dig up the right allen wrench. Unfortunately, I loaned my set out awhile back and forget to whom. I actually did call this one in but the fix became obvious when he pointed me to the tensioning device.

er

[Frank Drackman]

Sorry I should have made it more clear. I would by the MiniMax because I think that the product is better than the Laguna. I have used both and think that the MiniMax has less flex and cuts better.

My statements about MiniMax service are mostly about expectations. People pay an up-charge over Grizzly, Jet, and Delta to purchase MiniMax and when something goes wrong many times they think that MiniMax should be able to fix their problem instantly. I don't think the Grizzly customers have the same expectations. When MiniMax tells them that there is nothing they can do, or that a part needs to be sent over from Europe, their expectations are not met and they become unhappy.

Leon's story about going all the way to Austin to test a saw, with an appointment, and going away unhappy because they didn't have a saw are pretty typical. If you are not a member join the MiniMax group at Yahoo and read through the message archives.

[Frank Boettcher]

Tupelo.

But for the fickle finger of fate and and a northern Gulf that was a couple of degrees too warm late last summer, I'd be living in Biloxi right now. Some of my machines were already living there. Didn't fair too well. Fortunately, the Laguna 16HD was on high ground.

Frank

[Leon]

Yeah, you don't want to be close and east of the storm. I have been through

4 major hurricanes, mostly in Corpus Christi, and for the first time ran like a scardy cat when Rita cam on the heels of Katrina. Fortunately Rita was a dud for us in Houston and I beat the big exodus leaving Houston.

[Frank Boettcher]

I expect most will run after last season. More good sense than fear.

Fortunately Rita

My Houston relatives (Richmond, Friendswood) were happy about that too

I was living in Gulfport for four, including Camille in '69. I thought I had seen the worst I would ever see with that one. But no.....

Frank

[charlie b]

More than you probably ever wanted to know but here goes.

Knowing folks at Laguna Tools and MiniMax and owning both a Laguna Tools Robland X31 combinatgion machine (made in Brugge Belgium) and an LT16SEC (made in Italy by Meber) perhaps I can provide some info to this discussion.

Laguna Tools

This company's is aimed mainly at production shops and their bread and butter is the higher end production machines in the $20,000 to $50,000 range. They sell mainly to people who are familiar with powered woodworking tools, their set up, maintenance and use, not abuse. While their markup on the lower end of their line is, shall we say, "healthy", the profits from these units is a relatively small part of their business. Unlike production shops, small one and two man shops are not willing to pay an LT tech to do on site set up, training and repairs.

Torben, LT's president,is an acomplished euro trained woodworker. Then he discovered surfing at Laguna Beach (which is why the company, prior to moving inland and up the road from Laguna beach, was in Laguna Beach). He also did a lot of laminated pieces earlier on and thus has a love for bandsawing which continues to this day. He is repsonsible for the development of the ceramic blade guides and the Resaw King carbide tipped bandsaw blade. He knows bandsaws and how to use them.

He's also, let's just say, impatient when it comes to answering what he believes to be a dumb question. He's selling tools, not being paid to teach you how to how to set it up properly or how to use it.

Several years ago, LT brought in a new head of marketing because the guy guaranteed he'd at least double their sales within two or maybe it was three years. Part of his strategy was to dramatically increase the LT sales staff and aggressively push LT products (if you got on their call list you WOULD get called often, once a month or more until you bought something from LT, and then expect a call once a week from then on). Unfortunately, the increase in sales department staffing did not include a corresponding increase in other LT staffing, especially in Tech Support.

Two other strategies the new head of marketing introducedd were 1. Opening an east coast distribution site - specifically in New Jersey -just before a major east coast dock strike. The east coast site also required that some of LT's west coast tech support relocated to the east coast. You can imagine what it took to get someone to move from Laguna Beach, California, to New Jersey and environs. 2. replacing LT's computer system with new machines, new software and networking the east and west coast sites together. If you've ever gone through a "conversion" you know that it's like trying to yank the table cloth off a dining table, during a dinner for 12 people, and not spilling a drop of fine wine, or even interupting the dinner conversation. There's ALWAYS a "transition period" during which NOTHING works - AT ALL!

BEFORE the new head of marketing's time was up he and LT parted ways, the east coast site was closed down, the computer system simplified and LT California was settling down in thier new facility up the highway from their Laguna beach facility, sans some of their tech people who'd gone to Austin, with the former head of LT's marketing, to set up MiniMax USA.

During this period, LT's customer support was understaffed, with some of the most experienced people gone to a competitor. They're still recovering.

MiniMax USA

The president of MiniMax USA is the former head of LT marketing. He is not, to my knowledge a woodworker. His business plan is to establish and sell MiniMax in the USA, with plans to franchise sites in several key USA market areas. To date, no franchises have been established.

I don't know about their current facilities, but when I stopped in a couple of years ago to see the place and meet the former LT staff I'd gotten to know over the phone while they were at LT, MiniMax USA was in a small, newish, industrial area in an "office and reception area in the front, shop / shipping and receiving area in the back" 2500 - 3000 sf place. There was ONE combination machine set up and a few crates in the back. Other than the receptionist out front, there were only three guys in the back, two I knew from LT.

Since that time, most of the MiniMax tech guys who came from LT have returned to LT.

The MiniMax machines are well built and the sliding table on their combi units use linear bearing sliding tables similar to those used on Felder combis, rather than having the tables bearings riding on two steel rods with nine sealed bearings mounted under the table like my Robland X31.

I know a couple of former X31 owners who, having sold their X31s when they moved, bought MiniMax combis. Haven't heard any complaints about the MiniMax.

Either the LT or MiniMax bandsaw will probably do what you can expect a bandsaw to do, and do it well. As for customer support, don't expect quick fixes or much support, neither company stocks a lot of spare parts and the lag time to get parts can take a while, coming from Europe and all, to say nothing of "port security, such as it is.

If you want help with either companies "prosumer" products find and join one of the Yahoo groups of owners.

Just a word to the wise. In business, it's not usually a good idea to bad mouth the competition. You can compare your features to theirs but it's best to back up your claims of superiority with facts.

Told you it was going to be more than you wanted to know.

charlie b

I had to go to the Robland factory in Brugge to find out how to set up the Robland X31, the "manuals" SUCK! With the help of members of what is now the Yahoo Robland X-31 group, I wrote my own set up instructions and put it up on my woodworking site. LT tech support often refers new owners to those pages and I serve as an unofficial tech support. Got a call from a guy in Maine a few weeks ago and we worked out a solution to a problem he had. I added what we came up with to my set up pages.

[cdo]

I too made the same comparisons yesterday at the show, and came to much the same conclusions. The Laguna's "shortcomings", as described by the Minimax folks are just not that big a deal. I didn't see any problem with the Laguna guide bar bar rigidity or strength, and brake access on the Laguna (panned by the Minimax rep) was to me a non issue.

One aspect of the Minimax that may be worth noting is the tires - they mentioned that a "T" cross section is used that drops into a groove to maintain alignment. They claim no need to glue the tires. Laguna responded by claiming the Minimax tires are "plastic", while theirs are rubber. If the "plastic " is polyurethane, it will probably outlast rubber many times over (polyurethane is what's used for most forklift and amusement ride wheels, specifically for long life in terribly abusive conditions).

I'm not quite ready to commit yet to the purchase, but Laguna will probably end up getting my business when the time comes.

Cliff

[Pat Barber]

As always, an excellent little story and as the man said, "now we know". A good bit of that is certainly new ro me and I suspect, many others.

charlie b wrote:

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Snipped the entire Minmax --Laguna bandsaw saga....