knife hinges

I'm looking for a knife hinge that will allow 8" wide overlay cabinet doors to be opened completely and fold back along the sides of the case. The door to case relationship will be similar to that shown at http://jameskrenov.com/work/sept04.htm . Preference is for a high quality hinge in matt black with high quality brass being second choice. I've read a lot of hinge specifications the past few days and not a one suggested they would allow the doors to open the way I'd like them too... though they very well might! Does any one have experience with this situation who may also be able to make some specific recommendations?
Thanks,
John
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John Grossbohlin wrote:

Any of them should if you project them far enough from the sides of the cabinet, but they're going to be sticking out quite a way unless the doors are _very_ thin.
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John, I'm not sure there is such a thing. I've used brusso knife hinges on a number of my cabinets and I'm sitting here at work staring at one that has the L shape knife hinges on it now.
The problem is that to fold back completely on the sides of the cabinet would require that the hinge pivot point be on the exterior of the cabinet - otherwise there is no way it could open in the manner you're describing.
I think knife hinges are necessarily restricted to inset doors since the hinge mechanism sits on the top edge of the door and requires there to be an attachment point above the door for the mating half of the hinge.
Looking at your krenov picture, it looks more like an inset door than an overlay (the cabinet top/bottom are over/under the doors).You could use a straight knife hinge that sticks out a ways. This would establish a pivot point on the exterior of the cabinet and might get you where you're going. Problem is that it would probably have to stick out more than normal and might be kinda ugly.
If you're making a Krenov style/quality cabinet, I'd recommend using the Brusso hinges. Very price but best quality.
My 2 cents.
Gary in KC

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Perhaps the double offset hinges would fulfill his need. http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=1&p@246&cat=3,41241,41267
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John Grossbohlin wrote:

For that you would want offset hinges. The L shape allows the hinge to fit around the front edge and outside of the case.
http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=1&p@831&cat=3,41241
Chris
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Those double offset hinges still don't move the pivot point of the hinge to the outside of the cabinet as John's need is describing. They just move the pivot point forward so that you can inset the doors deeper than the front edge of the cabinet (inset to the sides and not just the top/bottom of the cabinet).
Gary in KC

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Gary A in KC wrote:

Moving the pivot point forward has the effect of moving the door outward as it opens. If the door exactly overlays the cabinet front and you place the hinge such that the pivot point is aligned with the outside corner of the door (or further out in either axis) then the door will be able to swing 270 degrees and fold back along the cabinet side.
Chris
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Don't think so. Moving it forward moves the door "forward" as it pivots and allows it to open 180 degrees instead of just 90 degrees. I'm sitting here next to my cabinet that has this exact configuration with the offset knife hinge and there's no way it could ever open 270 degrees.
For it to pivot 270 degrees the pivot point of the hinge has to be entirely outside the the cabinet (both in front and to the outside edge). Basically for a kinfe hinge, a straight hinge on a fully inset door allows for 90 degree opening (give or take a few degrees). The L shape offset hinge allows the same door to open 180 degrees since it's moved the pivot point to the front of the cabinet.
Gary in KC
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Gary A in KC wrote:

Not so. Imagine that the short arm of the "L" on the hinge is really long, moving the pivot point far out in front of the cabinet but still within the side edge. This has the effect of moving the door out to the side as it swings around.
> Basically

The example in the original post has full overlay doors, so a straight knife hinge with the hinge point within the bounds of the door allows for 180 degree openings. An offset hinge with the pivot aligned with the outside corner of the door gives the minimum hinge visibility while still allowing for 270 degree opening.
Chris
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That's what my thoughts were but I wasn't convinced I wasn't missing something in my hands-off assessment.
Thanks
John
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The follow up to my question highlights the theoretical issue I'm having pretty well...
I don't know if either "overlay" or "inset" describes the situation well which is why I posted the link. My thoughts were that with the outside edge of the door even with the outside edge of the case and in front of the edge of the case it was more like an overlay than an inset in relation to the hinges... I was ignoring the top and bottom.
Gary, is your door similar to what is in the link or is it a true inset door where the door front is even with the case front? I'm thinking the swing would change depending on this relationship. I was looking at off set hinges as I understood from the getgo I'd have to hang the straight hinges way out so the pivot point was outside the case side instead of being centered on the case side. I wasn't keen on that idea for a number of reasons... but the off set still seems like it might work.
I think I'll pick up some cheap off set knife hinges to play with and if there is some other style recommended I'd grab them too. What other options are there?? I've got no more than a week before I must have my final choice in hand! LOL
Thoughts?
Thanks,
John
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Why waste the money? Draw a simple offset hinge, cut it out and stick a pin in it where the pivot point will be. When you turn the hinges, you'll see for yourself how the doors become offset. Five minutes of effort to satisfy your question.
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wrote in message

I don't consider it a waste of money... the stuff would get used at some point for a lesser project and it has value to have actual hardware in your hands to explore the possibilities. I bought a whole bunch of stuff when Woodworker's Warehouse went out of business and outside of some Shaker pegs it's pretty much all gone... I bought way too many pegs. ;~)
John
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John - most of my comments were aimed at the inset doors I'm used to. I did a little playing in the shop over the weekend to satisfy my curiousity. On a partial overlay door like you're doing, I'm still not sure a knife hinge will give you what you want. Without building a mockup (that's your job!), it would appear the only way to get an offset hinge to work to go a full 270 degrees would be to make the doors the exact thickness of the hinge width or to move the hinge to the very front of the door (and exposing it's full length). Not sure if that's the look you want and it's really not what knife hinges were really meant to do (they're really meant to be hidden as much as possible). Worth exploring though to see if you can get a look and function that you like. Curious to hear if you did your own testing this weekend and how it went?
Gary in KC
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Gary,
Thanks for the follow up. I wasn't able to put my hands on any hinges locally. In fact I was stunned to see the shelves nearly bare of many items in my usual haunts. I guess the economy is really hurting the woodworking/home improvement businesses. One independently owned store, which has been around for at least several generations, informed me that they are dropping the Minwax products as well as other lines. In fact, everything I went there for is OOS.... pore filler, 320 grit paper, Zinsser Seal Coat... On the way home I stopped for gas and they aren't taking credit cards! I couldn't spend money today... both of those businesses shot themselves in the foot by not having anything I wanted to buy.
Anyhow, I wandered way off into the weeds. ;~)
Regarding the hinges, I'm disappointed to hear your observations but understand what you are saying. I definitely want them to all but disappear. If there was a way for them to not show at all I'd do it! I'm going to ponder this a bit more tonight and order something, maybe multiple styles of somethings as I'm running out of time. Seriously running out of time!
John
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