Kitchen cabinets question


Hello everyone,
I'm in the process of designing my own kitchen cabinets using Udo Schmidts' technique. One thing that has me stumped it that when building the face frame...It has to be the exact measurement of the cabinet itself (36" x 24" x 3/4"). That's fine. What I noticed on page 44 of his book "Building Kitchen Cabinets". He mentions that, "At each side of the cabinet, the face frame extends 1/4" beyond the outside face of the side." Also, when I look at the cut list he made(page 87), the floor panel is 23" x 34" x 3/4". Basically, why do you need the 1/4" on each side? Doesn't that leave a 1/2" gap when I butt up the cabinets together? Should I just disregard the 1/4" and make the floor panel 34 1/2" wide? Or is there a purpose to this 1/4" extension?
Thanks,
Patrick
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Patrick Bitton wrote:

Sounds like a "fiddle" allowance for hanging the cabinets. Could that be the case? I know when I design and build cabinets I always allow for extra room to fit things during the installation phase..
Hopefully someone familiar with the methods you mentioned can enlighten us all.

-- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. George Bernard Shaw
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Just guessing here, but I suspect that it's a little easier to line up & fit the edge of a face frame than to line up & fit the entire side of a cabinet. :)

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BJT wrote:

Good guess :)
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The real world of putting kitchen cabinets together rarely matches the accuracy of a well-tuned shop with good jigs. The space is a fudge factor, to allow for shims, scribing, trimming, etc.
IF all your walls are straight, square and plumb, your floors dead flat and level, and will stay that way, THEN you MIGHT not need the room. None of those conditions exist in my world. And I don't always get the measurements exactly right from the helper taking them down, either.
Good luck with your project. Take pictures to share. Plan to allow a little longer to complete everything. Google "David Eisan" + kitchen as to why. And he's got a little bit of experience.
Patriarch
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Wow,
Thanks for the EXTREMELY fast responses. I see your point. Another words the cabinets are ONLY mounted directly to the wall studs and not to each other? I guess everyon ehas their own technique in doing things. Guess I gotta keep reading. :)
Thanks again,
Patrick

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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:36:27 -0500, "Patrick Bitton"

I think they are usually joined to each other through the face frames.
The answer to the " space (could even be larger) lies in the corner of a room. If you've ever taped drywall or seen it done, there is buildup in the corner. Possibly no more than 1/8" if the tapers are good, more like " or more if I'm doing it. The corner will not be square and cabinets without the space you're describing will be a bitch to try and install. The fixes are aggravating, time consuming, messy, and potentially expensive.
By the way, I'll give you three guesses how I learned all of this.
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I see your point. BUT, since I am ripping out the old cabinets, I can check for plumb and level. And if it isn't to my liking...I will make them plumb and level to make the cabinets fit perfectly. I personally think that making a floor level and walls plumb is a much easier task then to butcher the cabinets so they can fit.
Here is my reasoning.
Cabinets made of Cherry----$4000.00(approx) Leveling a floor--------------$ 300.00 Plumbing walls-------------- $ 200.00
Making everything fit nicely---Priceless. (I hate those commercials)
BTW, I'm a carpenter so it will not be a hard task for me to make my walls square and my floor level. Basically the kitchen will probably have to be gutted out. Besides, I want to make this a headache proof as possible. And if that involves tearing down all the walls...so be it.
Thank you ever so much for the input. You people have helped me a great deal.
Patrick
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Patrick Bitton wrote:

Your reasoning is flawless -- but you could be wrong. Execution is another issue. Good luck.
Let us know how it works out. :-)
-- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. George Bernard Shaw
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Saying and doing are two different things.

In my workd, my time is much more valuable than materials. Build the cabinets so that they fit into areas that are not square.

Being a carpender you should have no problem working around walls that are not square or plum. Being a carpender you should already know that this condition exists and you should know how to make square cabinets fit into unsquare openings. Moldings, remember? Scribing overhang and a simple cut on the overhang makes the overhand fit nicely to the nonplum wall.
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:16:42 -0500, "Patrick Bitton"

[snip mastercharge commercial]

I'm not talking about plumb walls and level floors. I'm talking about the vertical corner which I already assume is plumb and square until the drywall taper gets to it.
What I'm saying is that the plane of the wall, which is otherwise straight for 98% of its length, even when meeting another wall, which is also otherwise straight for 98% of its length, will have drywall compound buildup from six to twelve inches of the corner which makes it (the six to twelve inches of wall) stand proud of the surrounding wall.
Take one of your 4' levels and using it as a straightedge put it horizontally against the wall with the end approximately one foot away from the corner of the intersecting wall. As good a carpenter as you are, the straightedge should be laying flat on the drywall its whole length. Now slide the straightedge into the corner until the end hits the intersecting wall. There will be a gap between the wall and the straightedge somewhere around 8" from the corner. Not your fault; it's the drywall guy. Not his fault; its the nature of the drywall beast.
You shouldn't even be able to get your framing square into the corner and have both legs hit the intersecting walls for the same reason.
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No, The cabinets should also be mounted to each other so that they do not pull apart when the house settles. Typically they are attached at the face frame to insure that gaps do not for between them. The face frame overhand is also handy for fitting the square cabinet into an unsquare corner where two walls meet.
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Patrick Bitton wrote:

No, the cabinets are also connected to each other through the face frames (put the screws under the hinges), that's why the face frames are wider than the cabinets...worlds easier to get face frames chock-a-block than is is to get the entire cabinet sides the same way.
-- dadiOH ____________________________
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"Patrick Bitton" wrote in message

Schmidts'
24"
face
1/2"
Ditto _everything_ Leon said ... the 1/4" lip's main purpose is for scribing to the unsquareness of three dimensional space in the real world. It can also be used as a departure point for creative decoration on end panels that show.
My suggestion, having built, and more germane, installed, more than a few kitchen cabinets, is to incorporate it into your design as the author suggests, you will be glad you did.
FWIW, a line of component FF kitchen cabinets are _always_ screwed to adjoining cabinets through the face frame. Don't fail to do this, regardless of any advice to the contrary.
Although you do not often need a spacer between cabinets when installing wall cabinets, when installing two or more cabinets of the FF style in a freestanding position, a la for an island, you can use a piece of scrap 1/2" plywood as a spacer (1/4" lip + 1/4" lip) between the adjoining cabinets if you find it necessary. This spacer will also give you a good spot to add a fastener for better joining the two, or more, cabinets.
So, as you see, that 1/4" lip can come in quite handy in more than one situation.
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