Kilz Latex Primer - Holdout On Tannin And Knots

I'm getting ready to make some pilasters for the fence. Going to use cedar S1S2E and the grade includes some knots. Acrylic paint finish.
I've done similar things in the past and used solvent based Kilz to hold back the tannin bleed and keep the knots from weeping.
Thing is, I'd like to spray this coating and do not want to run a solvent based finish through my airless sprayer.
Would like to know if anyone has experience using the water based Kilz product on cedar and knots, and what the results were.
TIA
Regards,
Tom Watson http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 /
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Dunno how well it works on knots, but it sucks as far as the airless sprayer is concerned (at least my Wagner) - the piston would jam up after only a few seconds of operation (I assume from the silica in the paint) - I switched to a different primer and the job went just fine.
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Tom Watson wrote:

water it down to get it through a airless which could make it about useless.
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On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:01:53 -0700, evodawg wrote:

Kilz isn't oil base. It's pigmented shellac and as such is alcohol based.
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Larry Blanchard wrote: ...

Might want to let them know about that... :)
"KILZ® Original
KILZ Original, interior oil-base formula, is America’s number one selling stainblocking primer/sealer that tackles the toughest stains.
Originally developed to replace pigmented shellac sealers,..."
<http://www.kilz.com/pages/default.aspx?NavID#
"KILZ® Exterior
KILZ Exterior is a fast drying sealer-primer-stainblocker that was developed to block stains on exterior surfaces including brick, painted metal, wood, aged masonry and stucco. Its effective oil-base stainblocking formula..."
Even the Low-VOC non-latex by the MSDS is petroleum distillates/kerosine [sic]. Didn't see a single shellac-based primer.
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Not so. Old fashioned KILZ cleans up with mineral spirits.
Additionally, reading TW's post will reveal he asked SPECIFICALLY about their water based product:
http://www.kilz.com/pages/default.aspx?NavID=28
It's available at big boxes everywhere.
Robert
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

Actually, Kilz has a few different formulations...water, oil, *and* shellac.
Chris
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Chris Friesen wrote:

Find a statement by the manufacturer that _any_ formulation of Kilz is shellac-based.
I suspect that you are confusing Kilz, an oil- or latex- based product of Masterchem Industries, with B-I-N, a shellac-based product of Rust-Oleum/Zinsser Group.
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J. Clarke wrote:

Yep...I realized that shortly after posting.
Chris
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On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:06:36 -0600, Chris Friesen wrote:

My mistake as well - sorry.
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

I've made the same mistake myself. Wasn't until I bought a gallon of Kilz and got it home and read the label and had to take it back that I finally got it fixed in my mind that Kilz was oil based and B-I-N was shellac based.
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Tom: ready for another long explanation? *chuckle*
Only because I know you actually read folks responses.
Water based KILZ is a good choice for this. It will hold back a lot of bleed through color, but my personal experience has been that cedar may still "amber" a bit if it wants.
I get around this by choosing a color that will accept the amber without changing the appearance color to drastically. I am not suggesting to paint the wood red or green. For example, instead of painting the wood bright white, choose something with a little tan in it like a dark ivory. Everyone that doesn't see the can will think it is plain white, regardless of the actual color. And on a sunny day... no one will notice.

My attempts to spray water based KILZ through my sprayer have ended in tragedy. After a call or two to KILZ folks, tech support told me "it wasn't the best spraying material" and told me I would be better off with their The zinc oxide used as a stain blocker in KILZ is actually ground much less fine than the ZO or ceramics used as blockers and solids in paint.
You gun and equipment will not like the WB KILZ at all and you will have clogs, desegregation of solids (DAMHIKT), much too rapid drying and terrible spraying characteristics.
"A friend of mine" just had to try it in his gun and almost never got it all out.

It hasn't been 100%, but good. My experience has been on (painted) fence repair and cedar deck.
So, just a couple of suggestions from the gallery.
IF I am to use WB KILZ, I apply it with brush and roller. First, I caulk in even the tiniest of cracks with good acrylic caulk. On the bigger knots, I even skim a super thin coat of cauIk across the knot with my finger, making sure I leave the original appearance of the knot behind. The caulk works much better than the KILZ at blocking the color seepage, but has the benefit of holding the knot in place as well when the wood begins to shrink.
I spot all the knots with a slather of material applied with a cheap brush. If I see them bleed through in an hour or so, I hit them again.
I use a 6" or 8" "weenie" roller in a throw away tray and roll the surfaces with the material leaving a really thick coat behind. Any featured profiles that cannot be rolled get the brush. I try to leave behind a dry coat of 3 - 5 mil (or better) when finished on all surfaces.
I use the same basic technique when using regular KILZ, too. If you are doing a dozen pilasters or so, you will probably be well ahead of the game time-wise by not setting up a spray area, prepping the product, and not cleaning up your equipment when finished. When I am finished, I may or may not keep the brush, but the rollers and pans go in the trash.
I have changed my preference in primers and stain blocker to the Zinnser line. I can spot coat knots with the WB stuff, then come back and shoot their BIN from my compressor powered cup gun. BIN is shellac based with some pigment, but my cup gun shoots it out like glass, unthinned with a 1.4 mm tip. My primer gun is a cheapie low air consumption 20 oz gravity feed from HF that works like a champ. The BIN cleans up easily very from the gun and equipment with anhydrous alcohol.
If you have some of the newer growth cedar that is extremely porous, I would suggest you look at the Sherwyn Williams Pro Block exterior rated line. It is roll and brush only, but when I thinned it to see how much solid material was in it (I used it to seal oak cabinets in a kitchen and it filled most of the woodgrain!) there was so much solid material in it it actually dried to a crust in the bottom of my test jar.
I use the same brush and roll method I described for WB KILZ when applying, but like the results of the SW product much better for its filling effect. It seems (no empirical evidence) to adhere better than the KILZ products, too.
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pdf/problem/primers-selection-guide.pdf
Robert
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Thank you, Robert, for the detailed and thoughtful reply. This is just the kind of insider response that I was looking for.
The fact that the Kilz water based doesn't spray well is the deal killer for me. I'd already made up my mind to only use the WB if it could be sprayed and if it was effective.
Since it looks like I have to go to a solvent based product, I'll probably apply with a roller and back drag with a brush.
Thanks for helping me come to the decision.
Regards,
Tom
On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 09:41:59 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

Tom Watson http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 /
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Tom Watson | 2009-07-13 | 9:27:23 AM wrote:

If you're going to brush it anyway, you might as well brush on the water-based Kilz. It dries in an hour or two, and a quick pass with a sander makes a really smooth surface for the finish paint.
Suggestion: Add some Floetrol to your finish paint. You can get a spray-quality finish with a brush. Just watch out for sags.
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On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 09:41:59 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

I decided to follow your lead and try out the Zinsser products. I'm using the B-I-N Shellac-Base Primer-Sealer-Stain Killer from a shaker can to spot prime the knots. Going over that with their Cover Stain High Hide Oil-Based Primer-Sealer-Stain Killer applied with a roller and back dragged. Their tech sheets seem to show that this combination has the best shot at holding back the knots and the tannin but we'll see. I'm only doing two pilasters for now and I'll get to look at them sit out in the weather for a week or so before I do the other 16 pieces.
These pieces are probably going to be blue - at least these experimental pieces will start out blue and where they wind up depends on management (wife) not labor (me).
Thanks again, Robert.
Regards,
Tom Watson http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 /
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My pleasure. Glad to be of help.
Robert
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This true to a degree. But some time it's not going to cover and seal a solvent based product is a better choice, Oil is good but shellac is better.

This is stupid. If your finish is still yellowing your system isn't working. Try some thing else.

This is nonsense an airless sprayer should have no problem running WB though it if it pressurizes to 2500 psi or better and the right tip is in it should not be a problem. It may not atomize as fine as say a fine finish lacquer but it will atomize. Kilz does not contain zinc in it its main pigment is titanium dioxide from 5 to over 30 percent by volume, and weather it's Ti or Zo has no bearing on atomizing the material unless it's the size of pea rock. Look at these mdsd's and see for your self no zinc and sure as shit no ceramic
http://www.actiocms.com/VIEW_MSDS/AuthorDisplay_V401/msdsdisplaycode_author_new_MASTER.cfm?edit_msds_idV59&dbname=AUTHORING2&language=1&Hide_Section_Numbers=N&CFID 43042&CFTOKEN8d54930c6b4ab4-B8EF9A3A-C270-BAD0-C7535FAF52C3C23D
http://www.actiocms.com/VIEW_MSDS/AuthorDisplay_V401/msdsdisplaycode_author_new_MASTER.cfm?edit_msds_idV64&dbname=AUTHORING2&language=1&Hide_Section_Numbers=N&CFID 43042&CFTOKEN8d54930c6b4ab4-B8EF9A3A-C270-BAD0-C7535FAF52C3C23D
http://www.actiocms.com/VIEW_MSDS/AuthorDisplay_V401/msdsdisplaycode_author_new_MASTER.cfm?edit_msds_idV63&dbname=AUTHORING2&language=1&Hide_Section_Numbers=N&CFID 43042&CFTOKEN8d54930c6b4ab4-B8EF9A3A-C270-BAD0-C7535FAF52C3C23D
http://www.actiocms.com/VIEW_MSDS/AuthorDisplay_V401/msdsdisplaycode_author_new_MASTER.cfm?edit_msds_idV66&dbname=AUTHORING2&language=1&Hide_Section_Numbers=N&CFID 43042&CFTOKEN8d54930c6b4ab4-B8EF9A3A-C270-BAD0-C7535FAF52C3C23D
http://www.actiocms.com/VIEW_MSDS/AuthorDisplay_V401/msdsdisplaycode_author_new_MASTER.cfm?edit_msds_idV62&dbname=AUTHORING2&language=1&Hide_Section_Numbers=N&CFID 43042&CFTOKEN8d54930c6b4ab4-B8EF9A3A-C270-BAD0-C7535FAF52C3C23D

If you have clogs your filtering isn't working correctly. You should filter it though a bag type filter and your filter in the gun and machine should be in place and clean and have no holes in them either.
Desegregation of solids?????????? This means that your solids won't be segregated, this is more nonsense, solids in coatings don't segregate your vehicle will separate but not the solids, try mixing your material if this happens.
Rapid drying this is a characteristic of fast dry primers; it dries fast but not the fast. And if you're spraying this is not a problem especially with airless. Terrible spraying characteristics may be bad spaying technique on part of the operator.

This is true brush and roller is the best way to apply primer to cedar especially rough sawn it gets the primer into all the nooks and crannies and seals it from water intrusion.

I don't agree with this. Prime first, and then caulk and the reason is the dry wood will suck the vehicle out too fast and affect adhesion, also the oils in the cedar will also affect the adhesion. Seal it, then caulk. As far as hold out on the knots this is true but it will leave a patched look on the knot weather it's under or over the primer and how much caulk you use. Half a dozen of one six of the other.

I too like Zinsser products better they also have oil and latex base as well as shellac. What is anhydrous alcohol you mean denatured don't you?

Pro block is also a good product it's a shame I hate SWP.

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