Jointer Trouble

On 28 Nov 2006 14:16:47 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com wrote:

Only thing that has irritated me about you is your paranoid attitude that everyone is out to get you, and it's manifestation as a willingness to attack like a bulldog at the slightest provocation. I'm not terribly insulted by you- I'm arguing with you, because I can take a punch on the chin. Sometimes, that leads to a cold beer and some frank conversation that clears the bullshit out of the air- and sometimes it leads to this.

Nope. Nor am I a lawyer, judge, constitutional scholor, or college professor. I also do not hold a medical degree, skydive, sew or ballroom dance. I make useful items out of wood, metal, and occasionally masonry materials- that's it. However, I am a person capable of actual thought- and more often than not, that's more useful in dealing with reality than memorized expertise from a textbook.

No- but I get by, and do well enough at it. I use what is needed to do the job at hand. When that's a mic, I use a mic. When it's a dial indicator, I use a dial indicator. And I know enough to know what tool I need to measure the part in front of me properly, as well as visualize offsets, write G-code programs (without CAD, even), and set up machines for precision work. Sometimes, I even use something demeaning like a rule or a square. I've even been known to lay out a blank with some red dye and a caliper from time to time.

[shocked silence from the audience]

That's the result of on the job training, as opposed to taking a voc. school course on the subject. Guaranteed, I can learn whatever I need to know when I encounter a new challenge faster than you can blink- that's worth more than your bombast.

Never said I was- in fact, I didn't even know the term until you started tossing it around willy-nilly. But that doesn't prevent me from knowing when something is not called for. I could align all the books on my shelves to make them flush with the front using a straightedge and feeler guages, but that's.... insane. And even though it's nuts, I'd imagine that you'd still chime in about my sloppy trial and error book alignment technique, and declare that a dial indicator would make the bindings align more evenly.

Nope, working knowledge only. I add to it as needed for the job at hand. I've worked an alloy or two, and know how to get them to do what I want. Sometimes, I have to use something new, and then I learn a little more.

I'm not? I'd be willing to go toe-to-toe with you on that score. Considering the range of skills involved and the general level of ability in the population, I'd feel very comfortable calling myself an expert in at least a few areas of it. I'd even go out on a limb and guess that I know more about it than you. Can't say for sure, of course- but I'm not the one applying micrometric precision to a product of a living organism. You forgot the soul of the tree, Ed- why not just focus on metal, where that soul doesn't matter a bit? Iron and steel don't care how they are worked.

Nope. I'm not even an expert consumer. Whenever possible, I make my own things. Though I did manage to do well by myself for a long stretch of time contracting- does four years count for anything, or is that just goofing off? Still be doing it today, if I was willing to risk everything while networking to establish myself in this area- but I'm not.

Almost kind of wish you did show up one day, you could see how wide you've been of the mark more than a few times. Sure, I've made some deadly written gaffs in the quest make a point, but we all make mistakes.

No- I'm not really an *expert* at many things. Expertise implies specialization, and I am a rabid generalist. I learn what I need to do a particular task I'm taking on, and then get on with it. Once I've learned it to my satistfaction, I move on to another challenge. When I see someone struggling to figure out something I've already done, I try to share what I learned by doing that thing a time or twenty. They can take it or leave it, and if they leave it, I feel no need to "call their motives into question."

I'm sure I could become an expert machinist just to argue with you on a woodworking newsgroup, but that's not a very good motive for doing something. If I were going to specialize in it, I'd have to like it more than I actually do, and be willing to devote single-minded attention to the subject for years. Something I have done with woodworking, despite your claim to the contrary- I've still got my first scar from when I was seven or eight years old, and trying to figure out how to whittle articulated chains like the ones I saw in the "Paul Bunyon logging camp" with my little Old Timer pocketknife. Got a little pineywood sap in my blood that day, and it never did manage to work itself out. Sure, I've asked some dumb questions in the past- they're in the archives for all who care to look to see. I'm 27 years old- everything I learned on were low-end hardware store hand tools, until several years ago when I finally got to a point where I had money and space to start buying bigger and nicer equipment. When I got that equipment, I figured I had better ask around a bit before I managed to chop a hand off on my new toys. Truth be told, my shop and projects today would make a lot of far older men more than a little green around the gills- but I still remember picking up sticks and whittling them with a pocketknife while I blue-skyed about making something "really nice" someday. So when I see you prattling on about how anyone who doesn't have a million dollar shop adjusted to machine shop precision can't do a damn thing worth doing, I get more than a little irritated on behalf of that kid standing behind me that still has only a pocketknife and a bit of determination.

I run metal working machines to pay the bills- I make parts to fit specs as quickly as I can to keep the money coming in- and so far, that's been working pretty well for me. The boss says I'm the best machinist they've got- and I'll have to admit that I'm more convinced by that (when real life, and the shop's cash flow is involved) than worrying about whether or not Ed from the Wreck has approved my credentials. No, I don't often measure in tenths- go on and sue me. In spite of your scorn, I'm not going to run out and buy new equipment and change the company's (sucessful) business model so that I can run with big dogs like yourself. I'm fine with making useful things that people actually need- and the customers are delighted to let me make those things for them. And, in case you hadn't realised, you've mentioned nothing but dial indicators in *any* of your posts. I've been avoiding that, but there it is. That the only measurement tool there is, Mr. Metrology? Someone is not in the *real* world- are you sure it's me?

I'm tired of the damn flame war that you keep rekindling in thread after thread with little or no provocation. Lots of folk roll over for you quickly enough, and I just decided not to. Sort of like not just looking the other way and walking along when a kid is getting mugged by a bully.

With you, Ed- I'm not. Not anymore. I have always been able to align and adjust my woodworking equipment just fine on my own. If I want to add a dial indicator to the mix somewhere down the line, I imagine I can figure that out on my own- even though I have not recieved the acclaim of "experts" in the field of metrology.

To close, I'll remind you of your response to Tom Watson:

"While you might have your finger on the pulse of the Wreck, your judgment of my attitude and my abilities is very subjective. Until you actually meet me, see what I can do, and examine my work, you really are basing your opinion on very little evidence. You may believe that I'm behaving in an "elitist" manner, but many would believe that I'm being very helpful. Perhaps I should start writing in parables, then I would very clearly be demonstrating an "elitist attitude."

Perhaps you should heed your own advice. A man's value is in his works, not his words- might want to know the work before you go judging his "expertise."

Like you said, we've dancing in circles. Feel free to get the last word in, I've said my piece. I really did try to see your point, and there were some very good points you made- but you've got this so worked up in your own head, you can't see the shop for the swirly brownian motion of every mote of sawdust.

Reply to
Prometheus
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When I read this my first reaction was to re-read what transpired in various threads, including this one. While I don't think that I'm being paranoid or attacking people like a bulldog, it is quite possible that I'm so focused on the moment that I miss the big picture. I invite you to do the same thing - especially in this thread. After some careful introspection I really don't believe that your words characterize my behavior. If you still believe that you have accurately described the situation, then I would consider it a big favor if you point it out to me.

Well, the air does nead some clearing, that's for sure. I would be honored to buy you a beer and you are most welcome to visit my shop any time you are in the area. I don't know if I'll ever be in your area because I don't know what your area is. But you are always welcome in my neck of the woods.

In my review of this thread in particular, it still seems as if I just couldn't express any opinion or explain any position without raising your cockles. I didn't say any of these things with the intent to insult you or anyone else. I understand how disturbing it is to have one's passions and achievements mistakenly characterized in unflattering ways. If I did this to you then I apologize.

The whole purpose of my products is to facilitate a level of accuracy and precision that eliminates the need for trial and error (test cuts) with woodworking machines. This is going to be offensive to people who hold these techniques dear. It is also going to be offensive to people who believe such a goal is impossible because their own efforts have been met with failure. Most often these people respond with critical remarks like "it's unnecessary", "it's more trouble than it's worth", "it has no merrit". I challenge these statements with pointed questions and embarrassing scenarios. When challenged they generally attempt to villify me in some way. More often than not, they try to protray me as arrogantly running around attacking people for advocating anything other than my products.

I still don't understand what skills and techniques you have been talking about. You say that they are not "trial and error". But when I characterize "trial and error" as a rudimentary and primitive technique you say that I'm being offensive. If they are not trial and error, then they are not related to my products. My products do not exist to put down any particular trade group or skill set. I do not want to promote my products to people who don't need or want them. But, I won't sit by and let my passions and achievements be mistakenly characterized in unflattering ways without being challenged. It's not an unprovoked attack, it's a very carefully measured response. The goal is to discover (expose) motive. It doesn't have to be painful or insulting but some people prefer that to honesty.

I'm not going to respond to each point of expertise that I mentioned in the earlier message. Your response tells me that the intent was completely missed. I realize now that I probably should have never posted it. I was very frustrated with your response and with a few other messages from you in the group. I should have let it go for a day or two and then I would have been better able to respond to your message. I didn't write it to put you down or to put down the skills that you obviously possess and use to earn a living. I'm sorry that you took it that way and felt the need to strike back. I hope that you don't miss the intended meaning and that your future postings in the NG will be better as a result.

Thanks, Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com

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Reply to
ejb

You've quite missed it, haven't ye.

My reference:

Troilus and Cressida Act V

Achilles:

Where is this Hector? Come, come, thou boy-queller, show thy face;

KNOW WHAT IT IS TO MEET ACHILLES ANGRY

Hector? where's Hector? I will none but Hector.

Definitions: hector verb

tr & intr hectored, hectoring

  1. To bully, intimidate or threaten.

Thesaurus: badger, browbeat, harass, intimidate, bully, menace, nag, tease, harry, pester. noun

  1. A bully or tormentor.

Etymology: 17c: named after Hektor, the Trojan hero in Homer's Iliad.

An argument for a broader base to engineering education.

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

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Reply to
Tom Watson

No Tom I didn't miss it, I ignored it. I'm still not insulted. I still respect the quality of your work. But, I am forming new opinions about you as a person.

The problem with this pseudo intellectual nonsense is twofold. First, there just aren't a lot of people who readily recognize a quote like this. Nor do they want to waste their time to look it up. Second, even those few that are familiar with the quote and well versed on the topic cannot possibly discern *your* particular meaning in using it. Certainly there are a lot of various possibilities - the exploration of which is pointless.

Since your reference appeals to such a small segment of the general population it makes you appear elitist. And, you appear rather arrogant because your condescending elaboration (directed at me) includes everyone who "quite missed it".

Obviously, you have no desire to portray the very qualities that you accuse me of. So, why d>

Reply to
ejb

Ed, I think we've both gotten at least a little out of hand with this.

I'm not going to pursue it, and I'm not going to hold a grudge about it either. I'm sure you're a good guy, and it seems that we're just misinterpreting each others' words. It'd probably be a two minute conversation face-to-face, and the whole deal would be resolved. It's tough to know when someone is joking, being sarcastic, rolling their eyes, etc. with written words, and there has got to be a subtext here on both sides that is not being communicated accurately for any number of possible reasons.

So, I'll apologise in turn for the misunderstanding, and forget the whole deal. Like you, I'd be pleased to buy you a beer if you're ever in the area (which in my case is Bloomer, WI.) Probably, I'd like you just fine in person, and get a touch embarrassed over this whole exchange to boot.

In fact, I just met with a guy from the blacksmithing group (I'm learning to make chisels for myself so the lathe doesn't put me in the poorhouse) in person for a demonstration of his forge and a some tips on building my own, and he was nothing like what I had imagined- I don't know that I've ever met a friendlier or more helpful guy, but he seemed a little grumpy and brusque online. So, you never really know- and that's probably the case here as well.

So, good luck in your ventures, and have fun- that's the whole point, after all!

Reply to
Prometheus

: The problem with this pseudo intellectual nonsense is twofold. First, : there just aren't a lot of people who readily recognize a quote like : this. Nor do they want to waste their time to look it up. Second, : even those few that are familiar with the quote and well versed on the : topic cannot possibly discern *your* particular meaning in using it.

No kidding. And it's unclear what the hell he was talking about with respect to linking the Shakespeare quote to bullying. Thinking of himself as a persecuted hero who slays the bully? Thinking of himself as the bully?

Combine the confused attempts at literary allusion with the cussing, and I'm starting to think the writer is actually a teenage relative of the account owner, trying (badly) to come across as a badass enfant terrible.

:>

:> An argument for a broader base to engineering education. :>

No, an argument that you need to try harder to make posts that make sense, or at least stop swearing so much at pleasant people.

-- Andy Barss

Reply to
Andrew Barss

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