ED As far as I am concerned all issues of the OP have been adressed and I for one wish to not waste my time on this matter. At least I am man enough to to say ley it go when it is going nowhere and move on. I just hope in months to come as you get to know a little more about me if I stick around that you are man enough to offer a public appology in this group for your misconceptions.
Just to clear up your misconceptions about the post I have copied a few lines from my first 2 posts. Do no interperet the upper case as shouting, it is just the easiest way to differentiate between copied posts and my comments.
FROM FIRST POST
If the knives are not parallel to outfeed table (one side high) there will be rocking as the board moves to tha outfeed table which you should be able to feel. A common error for ppl learning to use a jointer is they place tooooooo much force trying to hold timber down. You don't need to stand on a board to keep it flat, your main purpose is to guide the board through. A reasonable gentle touch is all that is required.From the description it sounds very much like the infeed table is not parallel to outfeed table but knives are parallel to outfeed. This would cause more to be planed from one side than the other and increase the amount of error with each successive pass. I BELIEVE THAT ADDRESSES ISSUES OF BOTH MACHINE AND OPERATOR ERROR
my suggestions would be
Ignore the fence ..... nothing to do with face jointing. If the fence is not square to table when jointing a edge the angle would not change with successive passes, it would always remain tha same degree of error, even after 100 passes.
Check and adjust knives to outfeed table .... both level with and parallel to outfeed table
Check infeed table for level in relation to outfeed table either by measurement or Let teh machine tell you what is wrong. Run piece through jointer (E end first, mark on timber so you dont get as confused as we are) ... measure. If out of parallel feed back through jointer opposite end first ( F end) ... measure. If board now same thickness either side (within reason) your infeed table is not parallel to outfeed. mmmmmm guess I know what your doing for the next cpl of hours
THAT IN ITSELF CONFIRMS IF THE TABLE IS THE PROBLEM.
FROM SECOND POST NOT JUST PUSHING ONE METHOD .... OFFERED BOTH. MORE EXPLANATION OFFERED ON SECOND METHOD AS THAT I WHAT I USE, PREFER AND KNOW BEST. IT WAS OFFERED FOR THAT REASON AND NO OTHER
You can go down the dial indicator track if you want to go that way. I just find it a lot of unnessary effort. NOTE THAT I SAID THAT "I FIND IT UNNECESSARY"
THIS PARAGRAPH DESCRIBES 3 DIFFERENT STRAIGHT EDGES THAT CAN BE USED A simple tool to do exactly the same job just as quick a straight edge. be it a straight piece of timber. a small ruler of either plastic or steel doesnt really matter. I can hear ppl shuddering now at the thought of using a steel rule but if used correctly it will do no damage whatsoever to the blades, if it does buy a set of better quality blades. THIS SOUNDS VERY MUCH LIKE INSTRUCTIONS ON SETTING IT UP TO ME USING EITHER TIMBER, PLASTIC OR STEEL. I SUPPOSE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE MORE PRECISE HERE ... A STRAIGHT PIECE OF TIMBER IS BASICALLY A RULE WITHOUT MEASUREMENTS ON IT AND I USE A STAINLESS STEEL RULE.
To find top dead centre of knife rotation Place rule on rear table. start to rotate knife by hand as soon as it hits the straight edge (remember you are placing no pressure on the straight edge it is just sitting there)... place a mark on the fence keep rotating cutter until knife clears straight edge ..... place another mark on fence measure half way between these 2 points align knife to middle mark ... and you are now on TDC SOUNDS STRAIGHT FORWARD TO ME
OK now to set blade height bring each knife to TDC and adjust to straight edge. Knives are parrellel to and level with outfeed table. It will take you longer to undo the nuts on the cutter than it will to set the knives. You will 'feel' the knife on the straight edge. If a little unsure rotate cutter by hand straight edge should not move more than 1/32", you dont have to measure it you can see the straight edge move and guess how much. If your hearing is better than your eyesight all you have to do is listen to machine and it will tell you when its right. You can hear the knife scraping the straightedge. IT EVEN OFFERED 2 WAYS OF TELLING WHEN KNIFE IS AT RIGHT HEIGHT
Without knowing the dia of cutter block to do exact calculations this will be within a thou A variation to this that some ppl use is basically the same method as when you are finding TDC. The straight edge should move the same distance on each end of the knife and on each knife. Only downside to doing it this way is that you will then have to adjust the outfeed table to match the knife height. LOOK AT THAT .... I EVEN EVEN MADE A MENTION OF A DOWNSIDE TO THAT METHOD. I BELEIVE IT IS REFERED TO IN HERE AS THE CARRY METHOD
AND WHATS THIS ... EVEN A SIMPLE WAY FOR BEGINNERS The first few times you set up a set of knives it could be a little fiddly but once you get the feel of it it only takes a cpl of minutes to adjust a set of knives. The hardest part is usually learning how much to move the knife. I easiest way is to just nip up the 2 outside bolts on cutter just enough so knife doesnt move. Set the knife a little high and tap back down with a piece of wood to set correct height. Tighten bolts and recheck measurement.
LOOK AT THAT WE REALY ARE GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES .... BACK TO FIRST 2 POSTS AGAIN. I NEED WASTE NO MORE TIME I REST MY CASE
Rather than reply to each and every point, maybe I can just summarize some of the themes here.
The workshop doesn't suffer the same environmental turmoil that the jobsite does (unless it's a really crappy workshop). On the jobsite, a woodworker must learn to cope with adverse working conditions in order to perform his job. These conditions compromise the performance and accuracy of tools, machinery and measurement instruments. So, these "coping skills" involve tricks, methods, and techniques designed to produce quality craftsmanship in spite of the hardships.
In a workshop the tools, machinery, and measurement instruments can be maintained at a high level of quality, accuracy, and reliability. There is no need to treat them the same way that they are treated on a jobsite. When properly used, they can be trusted to do accurate and reliable work. The "coping skills" used on the jobsite can be (and often are) used to produce quality craftsmanship in the workshop, but they generally require more time and result in excessive scrap. The reliability, accuracy, and efficiency of these tools, machines, and instruments are therefore neglected.
People who continue to use jobsite "coping skills" in a woodshop are very proud of their abilities. They advocate them to others, teaching them how to cope with conditions which do not exist. Their "skills" demonstrate abilities and accomplishments which earn them some prestige and respect. So, it is only natural that they find it very difficult to accept methods and skills which involve the proper use of the tools, machinery, and measurement instruments in the workshop. Their skills are based on the notion that these things are unreliable and should not be trusted. So the suggestion that they can be used properly to achieve accurate results which rival the highest levels of craftsmanship is summarily dismissed without the least thought. When challenged they often become defensive and critical of the methods and those who advocate them. In some cases they actively dissuade others from adopting these methods because they feel very threatened by the suggestion that their "coping skills" are not needed, inappropriate, or just plain ignorant.
Is it possible to win these people over to an approach that doesn't include their "coping skills"? Back in the 70's there were incidences where a group of UAW workers would get together to destroy a Japanese car. The idea was to strike back at "the competition" and expose them as evil. Quite often, the process would reveal the very thing that threatened them the most - the Japanese car really was a lot better. Even after everyone could see the stupidity of their efforts, they did not recognize their error. I think the situation here is the same. You cannot challenge a blind pride. These people must be willing to abandon their "coping skills" in favor of something better before they will be able to entertain new ideas. If they actively dissuade others from having an open mind, then they are completely blinded by their pride.
A good example of this is our friend "Paul D". He is so blinded by his pride that can't seem to recognize the dilemma he has put himself in. He has taken the argument to such an absurd extreme that he characterizes the use of dial indicators as idiocy. And yet, he professes proficiency in their use. It's a contradiction. It's easier for him to walk away looking like an idiot than to admit that he is deliberately trying to dissuade others from using dial indicators. Why can't he just admit that using a dial indicator is a good method but he prefers the "carry" method? Blind pride.
Some minor comments:
This isn't cabinetmaking! And, it's not cabinetmaking to build a plywood carcass and apply some factory made doors and drawers. Scribing cabinets to walls does require some skill but it's not like making fine furniture.
The guy who plays by ear should recognize that there are some disadvantages to being musically illiterate. The person who has poor vision should also recognize the disadvantages of not getting it corrected. I look at it more like the "machinist" who aligns his vise using test cuts. The guy is wasting a whole bunch of time and materials because he just can't recognize the disadvantages in avoiding the use of an indicator. Same is true with the woodworker who insists on trial and error.
Very true, if a person could "eyeball" the correct setting without any test cuts then using a dial indicator would be a waste of time. That would be the epitome of skill, right? But, that's not what we are discussing. Everyone who argues against the use of dial indicators is advocating a method which involves much more time, labor, and/or materials. They are not advocating the "zero" test cut method or the "trial" and no error method.
But, that's not what is happening here. In each and every instance I have been extremely careful to explicitly say that there are people who use the traditional "trial and error" methods to do excellent quality work. I am not even arguing with the notion that dial indicators are "not necessary". Of course they are not necessary. Everything that can be done with a dial indicator can be done without one. And, fine woodworking has been done for hundreds (if not thousands) of years without dial indicators (and the same thing can be said for the Jointer, the Planer, the Table Saw, etc.).
The argument develops when someone falsely characterizes the use of the dial indicator in an effort to dissuade others from using it. *They* say that people who use dial indicators aren't craftsmen. *They* say it's "the easy road". *They* say that using a dial indicator is "harder", "more trouble", "difficult", "tedious", "time consuming", cheating, etc.
I would say that every time a person uses test cuts to achieve some sort of machine setting they are "guessing" and using "trial and error". It is the most primitive and least skilled method. If they are insulted by this then they should really spend some time thinking about it. Their "skill" isn't in getting it wrong and making fine corrections ("trial and error") - it's in getting it right. If they can achieve the proper setting without using test cuts then they have demonstrated some real skill that has value. If they choose to do this by eyeball, then nobody can argue that it's a remarkable feat. If they choose to do this with a dial indicator, it's just as fine. Getting it wrong over and over isn't a valuable "skill". Getting it right the first time is a valuable skill that an employer or client would very quickly recognize.
Nope. Later on they complain to others that they bought the thing but never use it. They make it sound as if it is not very useful but the truth is that they were never willing to abandon their trial and error methods. They align their saw blade and fence and never touch it again. People who are willing to learn new things make good customers.
There is some truth to this. Year after year the business grows. More and more people appreciate better ways of doing things. But, every year the nay-sayers become more adamant in their attempts to dissuade others.
OK. People make these comparisons and I have largely ignored them but I think that this deserves a bit of attention this time. The analogy breaks down when you look at the details. I am not arguing with people who advocate a competitive product or idea. I'm not questioning the motive of the guy who came up with his own dial indicator jig. Geez, I'm supporting his use of it! I'm recommending it to others! I'm not questioning the motives of the guy who prefers to use trial and error. I am questioning the motive of the guy who is trying to dissuade others from using any thing related to dial indicators (including my products).
It seems unlikely that Rob Lee would jump in on a thread where someone was praising a competitive dealer. But, this isn't an analogous situation. I think that he would jump in on a thread if someone were trying to dissuade people from buying anything from Lee Valley. If that person were making ridiculous and untrue characterizations about Lee Valley in this newsgroup I would not be surprised to see Rob Lee do something, including jump into the thread. It didn't take me long to find several threads that he jumped into when someone had a complaint - even the slightest complaint. Here are a few examples:
didn't do an exhaustive search but I couldn't find a single complaint that Rob didn't jump into the thread on. And, he's not above making critical remarks about certain competitors and their practices. I don't quote these to embarrass Rob; I think such action make him most admirable and commendable. I have a lot of respect for someone who defends the honor of their business and has enough integrity to show his face in the wreck.
Beyond all of this, Rob Lee and I are in two completely different situations. I run a one man shop which struggles every month to make ends meet. Rob sits on top of a multi-million dollar empire with lots of people taking care of lots of stuff for him. He has huge resources at his disposal and can marshal them to take care of anything for him but his participation here proves that he is every bit as passionate about his company and its products as I am about mine. The difference is that he doesn't do it for survival.
I can't handle this bickering and arguing over $170 or so worth of equipment. This is rediculous. I asked a simple question and then it turned into flaming. I've gone through other threads over instrument alignment and I can't believe how people still go back and forth with Ed Bennett over his TS-Aligner. In some sense I think it's their being irked by his refusing to give an inch. But, people, consider this. Whether you agree or disagree with his methods the man is still doing something that many find immensely valuable and helpful. That process, as woodworkers, should be what we strive for. OK, there are other methods to get the same results, but Bennett never says otherwise. He tells the truth, tries to help people, is productive and makes a product that obviously have value. Why take shots at the guy over semantics and technique? In fact, when have all the bashers made a decent product that a single woodworker can attest to by saying, 'that helped me'? If we're going to argue with anyone about anything it shouldn't be someone who's really working to make the world a better place and not hurting anyone in the process. You don't have to buy the TS Aligner but you don't have to knock a man for trying to make things easier for the rest of his fellow workers. If anything, shouldn't we be mad as hell about the tool manufacturers who contract all their work to be done in Chinese sweatshops and pretend to the American public that they're still getting the same quality they used to get in 1950? Or how about the fact that public high schools make education regarding hand made crafts (wood and metal working) seem like a second class education fit only for criminals- even though much of what we gain through science and industry is based upon it?
I think those who bash Ed really need to step back, have a beer (or wine or water or whatever makes them take it easy) and refocus. We have a common interest. Why make things painful for those who want to help it along?
I think he does far better than survive! There are thousands of dealers and manufacturers who have absolutely no presence in this group. They still survive. Rob is here because he wants to be here. It really is proof of his passion for the business. I'm hard pressed to think of any other corporate officer from any other retail company who is willing to deal directly with customers. In general, they just like to move in, rape the company for gazillions of dollars of unjustified salary and bonuses, and then bail out with a golden parachute a few years later.
I have no trouble saying that the wreck is vital to my survival. Not just for sales (which doesn't amount to much), but for a lot of market research, honest feedback, dishonest feedback, product ideas, etc. I can't afford to pay a market research firm for this information. Heck, I can't even afford to pay anybody to clean the toilet for me! But, I can show my appreciation to the group by sharing technical expertise and offering the annual specials. It's ironic, the people who resent my presence the most tend to provide me with the best information.
If I didn't have a passion for this, I would go back to making money for a living.
That bit about sanding the set screws flat might just be the most useful part. Looks like the jig should work, I'll make a pair out of aluminum the next time I've got a real slow day.
No disagreement on any particular point- At this point, I'm conceding the value of using the methods you're advocating in the shop, and was just trying to walk you through the other point of view, in case you had forgotten it in the pursuit of your methods.
While scribing the back to fit the wall may not be cabinet making in and of itself, in a smaller operation, it's still the cabinetmaker's job, and is a large and visible part of the overall project. And having made plenty of "fine" furniture using traditional joinery and solid planks, I'd still say that scribing to a rough wall is usually harder than any particular internal joint, including hand cut dovetails and m&t joints.
And while I'd love to agree with you that building a plywood carcass and applying factory made doors and drawers is not cabinetmaking, I can't. Step back and look at your total argument for a minute- you're falling into the same error you've accused others of in this particular case. I have limited respect for the cabinetmakers that slap together carcasses out of plywood with pocket screws and mount other peoples' doors and drawers on them, but that is a matter of economics in a lot of shops- it's that same old march of progress that you can love or leave, and it applies just as easily to the finished woodwork as it does to the shop setup.
Making plywood boxes is 99% of the job for most cabinetmakers these days. I'm sure that there are plenty that do things the old way, but for every one of them, there are twenty (or more) that whack together mdf boxes and push them out the door as fast as they can- they're still cabinetmakers, because (drumroll....) they make cabinets. You can't redefine the term to only include the ones who make the stuff you like.
Is it fine furniture making? I can't even really make that call- I've seen some really expensive antiques that anyone would consider "fine furniture"- but when you turn them around, the back is made from old barn boards nailed into place. Using an engineered substrate is not terribly different, provided the joinery is still well-excuted and the veneers and finishes are attractive.
Well, sure- but that was my point. If you have 20/20 vision, there's no need for the glasses.
Here again, you've got this notion that everyone is insisting on trial and error, and not acknowledging that an alternate approach may work just as well, without being a half-assed way of going about things.
As an example, on Tuesday I was making a part for myself (a metal spinning toolpost for the lathe) that required nine holes (as I had drafted it) each centered on the y axis, and equidistant from one another and the ends. When I jumped on the mill, I found that someone on day shift had dropped a vise on the indicator and smashed it.
Rather than skipping the project until a new indicator arrived, I squared the vise by using the edge finder on both sides of the back jaw of the vise. There was no "test cutting" involved, and the total deviation between the first hole and the last was less than .001" over a run of nine inches. It took a few extra minutes, but it did the job just the same. Without the indicator- and without trial and error. What it did require was the trade skill of using an edge finder to determine relative squareness mechanically- just as other trade skills can be used to setup machines using things along the lines of a square and a set of feeler guages. Hell, I even sharpened the bit I used for the drilling freehand- because it took less time than setting up the sharpening jig.
There was no waste of material in the project, and a minimal waste of time that could not be avoided.
Not true, though that may be in the case of the jointer setup thread. (I don't own a jointer, and can't make any claims about it one way or the other.) I don't have money to waste on wood that isn't going into the finished project, so I set up the tools to be right without using any test cuts. From what I've read in these various threads, most people are doing that as well- just using different tools than you are to do so.
There's a communication block here, and it's directly centered over the use of "trial and error". Perhaps you mean it in a manner other than the way in which I keep reading it- what I take you to mean is that you're envisioning people just casually tossing their machine into a "sort of" alignment, and then making a cut, checking it, adjusting a little, making a cut, checking it, ad nauseum. That's not the case- in the case of setting a saw blade to 90*, a square will do the job without that, and in the case of a jointer, I would imagine that a straightedge would do the job of setting the knife heights without test cuts as well.
While I have seen one or two sentiments that reflect exactly that approach, I have to assume that you are saying that this is what I'm advocating, as you replied to the statements I made.
*I* didn't say most of those things- the only thing that I recall saying was that purchasing a dial indicator for home use, waiting for it to be shipped to my house, and then making a jig to put it on involved a lot more time and money than just using the square that is already sitting on my saw. If I were to run to a local store to buy one, it's far more money than it's worth to me ($38 was the low price the last time I was at the hardware store)
But that is neither here nor there- the point I was attempting to clarify is that for a guy that already has an adequate technique, finding, purchasing, setting up and interpreting the measurements returned by unfamiliar tools may well be a lot more time and effort than using the old reliable way of doing things. From that guy's point of view, it *is* harder, more troublesome, more difficult, tedious and time consuming- and in the end, may result in no measurable difference from doing it his way to begin with.
I guess I can understand that.
Well, that didn't save the coopering trade, or the thatchers, or the blacksmiths, did it? If you've got the superior method, there's no real problem with letting the naysayers howl away- this little corner of the internet by no means represents even the "average" woodworker- most of the regulars here have gone so far beyond the ken of what is normally accepted modern tooling and technique that the average carpenters and cabinetmakers I've met in real life regard most of the things I've learned or discussed here the way they would some obscure branch of ancient alchemy.
Granted- though I was referring more the the fact that I do not recall ever seeing Mr. Lee actively putting down potential customers. He could easily be jumping in on these threads and spouting off about how a Veritas plane is better than an electric jointer, but he doesn't. He just sells stuff that is hard to find elsewhere- as you do.
There is a fine qualitative difference between the behavior of Mr. Lee and yours. I'm not trying to put you down- I was just making an example of his superb aplomb when dealing with issues. I saw nothing in the posts you linked to that compare to the issue at hand, though everyone reads different things into the subtext. With one exception, I've never seen a post from the guy that led to a flamewar- and the other party in that case was really frothing to begin with.
Nor am I saying that you are poorly behaved or boorish- you're obviously an honest guy that is passionate about what he's doing. All I'm getting at, 110% of it, is that you are either intentially or unintentionally insulting some people in these discussions. There are plenty of ways to avoid that while saying exactly the same thing. If you can keep peoples' hackles down, they're a whole lot more likely to seriously explore what you're advocating.
Ahhhh... And how does one *build* a multi-million dollar empire? Or maintain it?
While I'd like to think it's solely quality product and fair prices, there's a fair amount of diplomacy involved as well.
Oh sure, I *am* mad at them- and not mad at Ed at all. I hope you weren't misreading my motives.
There's a subtext you're missing here- precisely *because* of the points you've made above, there is a very good reason to advocate keeping the hobby accessable to everyone- and not just all becoming cheerleaders for the latest innovation.
If a new guy jumps on this list, and begins to think that he needs $500,000 in tools and measuring devices, a 120'x80' shop, and exotic hardwoods to make a simple foot stool or a bird feeder, he's probably just going to skip it all together and buy one from the discount store. $170 is a lot of cash to some folks, myself included, and there's plenty of value in helping people figure out how to do a nice job with the tools they have at hand. We just need to stop trying to figure out which one is "right", because they both are.
I th> > While scribing the back to fit the wall may not be cabinet making in
No, it's the installer's job. Sometimes the cabinetmaker plays "installer" because he doesn't have a dedicated installer. It may be a very visible part to the customer, and it may be the most complex thing done on the job site, but it's not a large part of the job. It's one of the last things to do before bolting the cabinet to the wall.
I wasn't saying that it was harder or easier than any other part of the process. I was just saying that scribing to fit a wall isn't cabinetmaking. In fact, it's not "making" anything. The cabinet is all made. Scribing is an installation task.
It's really "cabinet assembly".
No, I'm not. And, I think that this is a very revealing point. I'm saying that a person who pays someone else to do 90% of the cabinetmaking job (doors and drawers) doesn't deserve credit for doing the whole job. I recognize that there is room for differing opinions.
If you believe that this is analogous to the indicator vs traditional methods discussion, then you must feel that 90% of woodworking is setting up the machines. And, you would have to believe that using a dial indicator is like paying someone else to do the setup for you (i.e. "cheating").
Sure. Finished cabinets can be delivered at a very competitive price if factory made doors and drawers are used. But, those who don't have the skills and equipment to make doors and drawers can't be regarded as equals with those that do.
This is not an "old way" vs "new way" thing. The doors and drawers are still being made by someone - just not the person you refer to as the "cabinetmaker". This guy isn't applying the skills required to make doors and drawers. The guy who uses a dial indicator is still doing his own alignments and setups. He does 100% of the work, applying the skills required to do the tasks. To say otherwise is to reveal that you believe he is cheating.
There is a very widespread misconception that it has to be old (or made with old tools and techniques) in order for it to be considered "craftsmanship". I've seen the same thing you relate here. A lot of antiques are poorly designed and poorly constructed. There are a few examples (like the Stradivarius violin) that reflect a level of craftsmanship which is lost to history. But, they are darn few. The knowledge, skill, understanding, and technology available today enables craftsmanship on a level which couldn't even be dreamed of 100 years ago.
But, if you have 20/20 vision with glasses (or contacts, or surgery), then it isn't "cheating", is it? Which one is cheating, the guy who reads music or the guy who plays by ear? Your analogies really don't speak to the issue. The glasses thing has to do with physical disability which can be easily corrected. The music thing has to do with talent, not skill. I think you are trying to say that various people have different skills but end up accomplishing the same thing. And, I think I've said that I agree (several times now!). I have no argument with this.
If it bothers you to think that it takes skill to properly use a dial indicator to align machinery, then that's a problem that you will have to work out on your own. If you are insulted by people who find no use for "jobsite coping skills" because they have learned other skills (like how to use a dial indictor) then you are just going to have to deal with it.
No, I really am arguing with those who are against using dial indicators. Many of them advocate trial and error methods. Some advocate other methods. But, the common thread here is that they are opposed to using dial indicators in the woodshop. I'm not sure why I'm arguing with you because you say that you are not opposed to using dial indicators. Yet, you keep turning it around to try and make it look like I'm attacking those who advocate anything but dial indicators. Why?
That's great. But, you would have used the indicator if it had been available, right? You wouldn't be against using an indicator to align a milling vise, right? You wouldn't be advocating the use of an edge finder over the use of an indicator, right? I'm not challenging people for being creative or demonstrating ingenuity. I'm challenging people who try to dissuade others from using dial indicators in the woodshop.
Fine, no problem. Congratulations. But, you aren't going to start abandoning the use of dial indicators in the machine shop are you? You aren't going to start ridiculing people who use an indicator to align a milling vise, are you? Are you going to start saying that people who don't use an edgefinder to align a milling vise have less skill? You don't suddenly think that using an indicator is "cheating" do you? You aren't going to start criticizing tool and cutter grinders are you? People who use them as "cheating" or having less skill? If you answer "no" to all of these, then I'm not sure why you keep coming back on this topic.
OK, fine. Not all of them are advocating methods which waste time or materials (using a square to set the blade to 90 degrees). But they are all arguing against the use of a dial indicator. And, they do so without trying it.
That's exactly what I mean.
Sure enough. So, not everyone who has spoken against dial indicators is advocating trial and error. But, they are still speaking against the use of dial indicators. And, they aren't willing to listen to potential benefits (faster, easier, greater accuracy, etc.) or even try the dial indicator.
Please do not assume. If I said that you are advocating trial and error over using dial indicators then please point it out to me. If you are talking about something other than trial and error when you describe jobsite coping techniques being used in the workshop then please be more specific.
Geez, this is really getting convoluted! I didn't specifically say that you said any of these things. But right now you are arguing with me for arguing with people who have.
Nobody said that you have to wait for a dial indicator. Nobody said that you had to spend $38 on one. Nobody even said that you have to try one - until you started being critical of those who use one. I'll have no argument with you if you have nothing against dial indicators and the people who use them in the woodshop.
Fine, let this guy do it any way he wants. I don't care if it takes him more time or less time or whatever. I challenge his method only when he uses it to put down dial indicators and those who use them. In the case of using a square on the table saw blade, I honestly think that Stoutman's jig is easier, faster, and more accurate. Geez, it even costs less than a halfway decent square. In the case of using the "carry" method on a jointer, I think that using a dial indicator is easier, faster, and more accurate. Advocates of both methods were challenged to try using a dial indicator. So far, no takers (well, there's one who claims he tried it but it's pretty obvious he hasn't). Quick to criticize, not very quick to back it up.
You keep arguing about some sort of skills which seem to be completely unrelated. Perhaps you have generalized my arguments against specific traditional "trial and error" techniques to include anything a person might learn anywhere that doesn't involve using dial indicators. The examples you cite certainly seem to fall into this category. I know that you say they all came from what you learned working on jobsites (even if the examples don't always seem to line up). I'm sorry that you feel like my arguments defending the use of dial indicators makes you feel like I'm putting down the use of these jobsite skills. Like I said, I see why they are appropriate for the jobsite. But, there are better ways to do things in the workshop.
Hmmmm.... I'll give this a whirl...
First of all, nothing in business happens all by itself. I can't just sit back and watch my sales grow. There is competition and if I am not actively working on moving forward then I'm going to be sliding backward. Yes, better methods eventually overtake inferior ones. But, that doesn't mean that my business will automatically be successful. The automobile eventually replaced all of the horse drawn carriages. But, not all of the early automobile manufacturers are still in business.
The wreck itself doesn't represent very much when it comes to actual sales. But, it does represent a market that I have targeted. Yes, I know that it is very different from what you know of jobsite woodworkers and cabinetmakers. These are hobbyists. If you read the hobbyist magazines you will understand them much better. The feedback I get from the group is valuable to me. People here react the same way that other hobbyists react when the see or hear about using dial indicators for woodworking. The big difference is that they are extremely vocal here. They don't care about insulting me, they just say what they think. There's a unique dynamic here. I argue with them to draw out their true motives. When I understand why they feel compelled to dissuade others from using dial indicators I can develop better approaches to reach those who haven't yet made up their minds. I can address objections that will likely come to them when they ask friends about my products (or when the topic comes up in discussion groups). So, I will have prepared them in advance.
I could do this anonymously. And, I could do this without making any contribution (sharing expertise and offering the annual special). But, that's just not my style.
If you have trouble understanding this then please just let it drop. I'm not going to sit here and argue marketing strategy in the NG.
Well, as I tried to relate, Rob and I aren't the same person. We don't operate the same business. If he wants to do market research, he tells his Marketing department to go spend a bunch of money with a market research firm. And, there's nobody out there trying to dissuade others from buying Veritas products. There is no group of people who feel offended every time someone mentions a Veritas product. One of the quotes I provided did show how Rob addressed a person who said a particular product was overpriced and unnecessary. This is just about as close as it gets but its still not the same thing. There are people who have a philosophical opposition to everything my business stands for. Nobody has a philosophical opposition to Lee Valley.
Yes, of course there's a difference. We are different people in different situations doing different things. I really can't afford to be like Rob in my situation. Give me a million dollars and then I could probably afford to be a lot more like Rob.
I think it's safe to assume that Rob is here mainly to develop and maintain a reputation for customer satisfaction. If this is true, then his goals and objectives are much better served using an approach which is very different from mine.
Yep, some people do get insulted. Not because I'm looking to insult them. I don't engage them until they express their opposition. Then I really want to know how they react when confronted with the facts and logic of their own thinking. I want to know what motivates them to actively oppose the use of dial indicators in the woodshop. I really do not understand what compells them to be so strongly opposed my products. In the process of finding out, they become insulted. Why? Because more often than not their opposition is emotional, not logical. And, when confronted by logic it looks pretty stupid.
Nope. Not possible. You can't explore the opposition or expose the motives of blind pride without insult. The only way to avoid insult is for the person to abandon their pride and look at the situation objectively. That's a problem when the person can't even see their pride. Just let me know when you are ready to start talking about aligning and adjusting woodworking machinery (as opposed to all the perceived insults).
It's a topic that goes way beyond this discussion or even the group. Everyone I meet has platitudes about building a successful business. You are right, having the best products or the best prices won't do it. "Diplomacy" is important but it won't do it either. I can name a big pile of extremely successful businesses that were built by people who are pretty darn blunt. There is no simple trite formula. People always look at a successful business and try to identify a particular quality which is responsible. It's a lot more complicated than you think. One thing is for sure - you can do everything exactly right but if you don't have significant financial resources then the going is incredibly rough.
: There is a very widespread misconception that it has to be old (or made : with old tools and techniques) in order for it to be considered : "craftsmanship". I've seen the same thing you relate here. A lot of : antiques are poorly designed and poorly constructed.
Not only are a lot of surviving antiques poorly made, consider the large number of pieces made in the past that didn't survive -- often due to shoddy construction. I'd venture a guess that most furniture made in the olden days was of not very high quality. What we see is what managed to last, due to decent craftsmanship and/or design.
There are a few : examples (like the Stradivarius violin) that reflect a level of : craftsmanship which is lost to history. But, they are darn few. The : knowledge, skill, understanding, and technology available today enables : craftsmanship on a level which couldn't even be dreamed of 100 years : ago.
The same principle applies to music as well -- the main reason, I believe, that much classical music is so far superior to most modern music is that only the good stuff survived long enough to become "classical". There was probably just as much crap being composed in Beethoven's day as there is now... but nobody remembers crap that's a couple centuries old, whereas the crap that's only a couple of years old is still played daily on the radio. :-(
Revealing what? It's a job title- and if you go and apply for that job, most places will set you to making carcasses and then mounting third-party doors and drawers. I don't think they deserve "credit" for that either- but they're not doing it for prestige, they're doing it for money.
Not at all. This is exactly why I keep arguing with you. I already said the damn indicator was a fine way to do it- you're the one who has jumped into four or five unrelated threads, and started going off about the half-assed methods of all us slack-jawed yokels who think using anything that measures with less precision than a thousandth to measure something is ok. I have not -ever- said that using an indicator is cheating- why do you keep claiming I have?
Yes, it *is* an "old way" vs "new way" thing. It's a product of specialization that occurs as civilization advances- those guys that make door fronts and drawers only make door fronts and drawers, and they get very good at doing it well for a low price point. They're not cabinetmakers, either- the guy that makes the carcasses has claimed the job title. Just because you (and I, truth be told) would prefer that it only referred to a guy that runs a full-service shop, that doesn't make it so.
Ed, I am not insulted by people doing things any way they like- I am insulted by you putting words in my mouth and concepts in my head that were never there to begin with.
Point of fact on this particular score- in my last post, I indicated that a guy who is accustomed to one method may not have the skill to properly use a dial indicator, and might just find it frustrating. I have no idea how that became me being "bothered" by the idea of using precision measurement tools being a skill. Most places want you to have a degree before you're even allowed to touch those tools.
But this argument has not been about the use of indicators for a while now, it's been about you jumping people and telling them what they think, when it's apparent that you're (perhaps intentionally) misreading the situation to make a point.
Because from what I've seen over the past few weeks, you are. You keep repeating a few terms as though they were dirty words, and applying them with a brush that is far too wide. If someone advocates anything *but* a dial indicator where you would use one, they become a an advocate of "Trial and error". If anyone disagrees with that for any reason whatsoever, they're "ignorant", and think that those that do use them are "cheating". Whether they use those words or not, and even if they're not expressing anything of the sort, you keep pulling out the old tried and true to polarize the argument.
Nowhere, at any time, or in any post, in my entire life, have I advocated guessing at a setting for anything. I won't even cook a frozen pizza without a specific temperature and cooking time firmly in mind, much less slap a tool into a random position and start cutting away. I'd be willing to bet that a few of the guys you've applied your labels to are the same.
Sure, using the indicator is the normal technique. The point was that there is more than one way to skin a cat. If your way works, that's great, but it doesn't make the other ways inadequate.
See above- you're verbally attacking people with little or no provocation. I thought perhaps you didn't realize you were doing it, and the words were just coming out wrong, but now it seems to me like you do in fact know what you're up to. Hope that works out for you- and it might (more than one way to skin a cat, and all.)
Not true. They are explaining alternate methods, and you're taking it as an attack on yours. Then you insult them, and they insult you back. Getting a good flame war going doesn't help the case for precision measurement (if anything was less related to emotion, I'd be hard pressed to name it), unless you're of the "any publicity is good publicity" school of thought.
A person is a lot more likely to listen if they aren't insulted right off the bat.
If this is really necessary, I'll run back through the history and post quotes- but I don't think that is going to make much difference one way or the other, and this has gone on too long already.
Yep. To clarify that even further, I am arguing with you about the manner in which you are arguing with those who disagree with you. Shouting and mudslinging may get you heard, but they don't make you right.
That's not to say that you're not right- there's certainly a good argument for everything you're advocating, and you've made the case for it. Now stop hitting people in the head about it.
For the millionth (or so it seems) time, I don't. The difference between you and I is that I don't think the other methods are worthless. I know you've *said* you don't think they are- but then immediately go on to insult those who use them, and claim that they are wasteful of both time and materials. It keeps happening, and the only conclusion I can draw from it is that you really think they're inadequate.
The whole start to this spat was because I didn't completely understand that Stoutman was calibrating his jig each time he used it, and was leery of the idea that a couple of bent finish nails pounded into a block of wood were up to snuff as "precision" stops. Once I figured out that the thing was intended to be recalibrated using the jointer fence before each use, I actually came around to the idea- not enough to run out and make one, but enough to see the value of it.
But by that time, you had worked very hard at painting me as an idiot and a rube (and did a pretty good job of it, at that- the only thing that didn't support you was actual reality, which we can't see over Usenet), along with anyone else who didn't immediately agree that the thing was the best thing since sliced bread- and I think it's a rotten way to act towards people. Believe it or not, I was trying to help your argument by trying to convince you to cast it in a more positive light- though at this point, I don't know that I care anymore.
Things aren't lining up for you because they're metaphors. I figured talking about something like perfect pitch would help take some of the loaded words out of the argument, but it didn't. With the specifics, I said I felt like a good square and a set of feeler gauges was adequate to set a blade, and that I didn't have enough info to say anything about the jointer blades. I did support the dial indicator for setting planer blades, and intend to dedicate a couple to that purpose.
I could go out and buy a Ferrari to drive to work every day- it certainly a fine piece of machinery, and much better than my low-end Ford, but there's no real need for it- especially if I'm obeying the speed limits. But if I was going to participate in a race, there'd be a real solid case for the Ferrari. See the metaphor?
Boy, is that a high-handed and rotten thing to say. You figure I've spent tens of thousands of dollars and years of my life in the pursuit of becoming a better craftsman, and never went to the effort of reading a magazine about it?
No, I understand it. If you look above, this is what I'm getting at- you slapped me in the face, and only then proceded to a logical argument.
You don't make a million dollars in the first place by offending potential customers and telling them they don't matter. I probably would have bought a TS-aligner had you stayed more positive about it, but this debate has cost you one sale for sure (mine), at least for the time being.
You're getting skewed data. I keep trying to explain why that may be the case, but maybe I'm wrong. It's happened before, and is bound to happen again.
When you're wondering why people are opposing you, there's a piece of advice I got once that made a lot of sense-
"If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always got."
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Think there might be just a little bit of the old stiff-neck on your side of things as well?
Oh, I don't mind talking about aligning and adjusting woodworking machinery with you- I'm just trying to keep it seperate from this. I do appreciate the link you gave me with the jig for setting planer knives, and I'll admit I've learned a thing or two from these threads.
On the whole, I really don't mind talking with you, and I'm not really that personally insulted- I know who I am and what I'm capable of doing, and an argument on the internet won't change any of that. I'll freely admit that there are far more things I don't know than there are things I do know for sure, and always appreciate a fresh look at things. I do like to keep things straight, though- plausible bullshit hurts us all, and I'm sure you can agree with that.
Let's be honest for a moment- you don't really *need* a $200 router to make a sign with your house number on it, or a japanese chisel that has been sharpened to an edge a straight-razor would be jealous of to clean up a mortise. You don't have to have a Unisaw with a table that is within .001 of total flatness to rip some boards to make a doghouse, and you don't have to have a Oneway lathe to turn a stair spindle. Most folks already know that- but some of the new guys don't, and there's no call to scare people away from the hobby by making every project into a potential museum exhibit milled to a degree of precision that might make NASA jealous. All those things can lead to a degree of satisfaction, and can be really fun in their own right, but sometimes you just have to grab some cheap Harbor Frieght tools and make a pukey duck- because that's part of the hobby, too.
To tell you the truth, I'd like to see your argument for precision measurement get a little more of a foothold- there's plenty of room for it in the trade. But I'm not going to just jump on your bandwagon if it means that anyone who doesn't go for it is to be the subject of a smear campaign. There are plenty of reasons for a guy *not* using your pet techniques, and I tried to suggest some of them. There are plenty of reason for a guy *to* use them as well, and I've attemped to acknowledge them as well.
Still round and round in circles - getting nowhere.
I really can be a pretty nice person. And, I really am very good to my customers. I go way out of my way for friends (many of whom are customers). But, I just don't indulge every possible whim. Like I've said before, I'm a truth and honesty at all costs kind of guy. So, if a charlatan approaches me spouting all sorts of bovine fecal matter, trying to impress me with some fictitious expertise, then I'm extremely likely to insult him. I really don't care if I lose the sale. You see, I grew up in a culture where honesty was more important than friendship. Flattery was considered deceptive and dishonorable. Indulging a person's ego did them more harm than good. In my thinking, the wounds from a friend are far better than gifts from an enemy.
I have a friend who grew up in a culture that believes very strongly in being gracious. He was taught that he must find at least one good thing to say about a person every time he meets them. He constantly pours on the flattery. He ingratiates himself to everyone he meets. He embellishes his stories and descriptions to make people feel good. Consequently, he has countless friends everywhere. Everybody likes to be around him. Everyone enjoys his company. He is extremely popular. But, it's all shallow. Nobody takes him seriously. Nobody trusts the veracity of his tales. Nobody considers him to be an expert in anything. It's all for show.
While it might seem like it, these two descriptions are not the extremes. Both my friend and I get along quite well in our lives. There are things about him that I admire and there are things about me that he admires. I think that his style serves him well in his profession. And, he thinks that my style serves me well in mine. Neither of us are going to change. We have already lived half a lifetime looking at the world through our respectively colored glasses and it's no longer possible to see it any other way.
In discussion groups like the wreck, there is a very strong temptation to express more expertise than one actually has. After all, there are a lot of people who just don't know very much. And, there is a certain level of anonymity which makes it difficult for people to disprove what is said. It is very easy just to embellish a bit on one's knowledge to gain favor and respect; so easy that I've actually done it on a few occasions. I'll never forget the time when I declared that all the parts of a Windsor chair could be machined:
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the time I proposed the mistaken theory that a miter joint would be more stable if the proportions of length to width equalized the longitudinal and lateral expansion rates:
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actually built a table based on that theory and it's still together today (no thanks to the theory)! My arch nemesis started an entire thread to make sure nobody missed that blunder. I never have made a Windsor chair. Maybe someday. In any case, there have been other instances but I think you get the idea. There might not be anybody that can disprove the embellished fact, but a person with real expertise can very easily identify it. Once challenged on such an issue it is very tempting to become falsely indignant and say all sorts of things to try and embarrass the expert. This temptation must also be resisted because it is absolute confirmation that the lie has been exposed. The best possible thing to do is to come clean and yield to the expert. A good recovery includes some gratitude for having been corrected. This approach preserves honor and integrity, maintains respect, and prevents a useless flame war. In spite of my academic approach to machinery alignment and adjustment, this is one lesson that I have learned the hard way.
Now, let me talk a moment about you specifically. I'm sorry to have to be so blunt about this but you leave me little choice. This just isn't going to get resolved without some confrontation. So, is there anything else you want to mention that might possibly insult you? Perhaps a favorite color? A particular day of the week? Phase of the moon? Let's do a short review: You're not an expert on the Sherman Act. You're not an expert machinist. You're not an expert in metrology. You're not an expert in metallurgy. You're not an expert woodworker. And, you're not an expert in running a business. Even though I'm not an expert in all of these areas either, it hasn't been difficult for me to make these determinations. I don't have to show up at your workplace or home to figure out when you are embellishing on your knowledge. Enough with the false indignation, OK? I'm tired of hearing about how much I insult people when I don't indulge their particular whims. I'm not going to sell my products to people who are proud to cut lumber off their knee, apply factory made doors and drawers to plywood boxes, scribe cabinets to brick walls, etc. unless they are interested in doing something different. Like I said, just let me know when you are ready to start talking about aligning and adjusting woodworking machinery.
I am willing to entertain this as a possibility but I do not see this to be in evidence just now.
One would expect that.
See supra and let's not stretch the equality, just now.
This goes a long way to explain your marginality in the business world. Wake the f*ck up and smell the coffee, Ed.
Then you are dumber than snot.
I don't give a shit how you grew up; as a customer, I'm only interested in your relationship to me.
My guess is that he is extremely successful in business, and you are not.
I suspect that he laughs at you while counting his change.
My problem with you, Ed, is that you have adopted an elitist attitude, far out of proportion to your abilities v. the general run of the Wreck.
Miter joints are not stable, Ed. Only fools use miter joints without other joinery supporting.
You have no idea.
Prometheus was arguing the field man's point. You have chosen to dissect him. I have chosen to let you try to dissect me, as I also would argue the field man's point.
Your tool works towards a point that is without merit in the real world. That is it, plain and simple. Now, I expect an argument from you, as that is your game; however, if you choose to pursue this, I will not only bring up Bleed's arguments, but will add my own.
Neither are you.
Neither are you.
Neither are you.
Neither are you.
Neither are you - but I am.
It is more than apparent that you are not, either.
To your satisfaction.
Well, you went on quite a tear there, Ed, didn't you?
You know, Ed, you make me almost wish that Bleeds was back.
What an arrogant little bastard you have become in his absence.
Thank you for this reply (even though my message to Prometheus wasn't written for you). It comes as quite a surprise - especially after what we discussed in the "Klownhammer" thread. I would really prefer to believe that what you said wasn't just disingenuous platitudes but this message makes it difficult. And, I really am surprised that you would take up such a perceived offense for someone else.
The four letter expletive aside, it's difficult for me to determine exactly what you believe is the cause of this "marginality" you talk about. Is it the "truth and honesty at all costs" part? Do you think that I should be a lot more deceptive? Should I just tell people whatever they want to hear to get them to buy my products? This seems pretty unlikely to me. And, it's something that I just can't do.
Perhaps the lesson you intend for me here is that a good business person should indulge every possible whim. A good business person doesn't worry about getting side tracked by a myriad of unrelated topics or about wasting time on things that don't have any possible benefit.
More specifically, I should pursue sales with people (like the jobsite woodworkers Prometheus was talking about) who clearly do not need the TS-Aligner products. Is this what you are saying Tom? I should not consider the fact that they are focused on framing and trim carpentry in adverse working conditions. I should not be concerned that their work has nothing to do with woodshop machinery. I should avoid saying anything that would imply that the methods and skills that these people depend upon are not compatible with my products because it might insult them.
So, insulting this segment of the market by telling them that my products don't apply to their skills and methods has caused me to become marginalized in the whole business world. Is that what you intend for me to learn here Tom? Hmmmm......somehow I just don't see the connection. I get along pretty well with all my business associates. And, if I could offer dealers the sort of "value" (i.e. obscene markup) that they desire then I'd be flush with them too. I'm not feeling very marginalized. This is just a really small niche market that I happen to be pretty passionate about.
Perhaps you have additional information which would help me to understand your meaning. You're very good at stories. Maybe you can cite some examples from your own life or experience in business. Perhaps you relate a story in which deception was the correct course of action. Or, perhaps you can describe how indulging every possible whim has worked out so well for you. To really fit the situation, I think it would be good to include a scenario in which the person bringing the whim was part of a larger group that was insulted by the skills and methods you use in your pursuit of quality and craftsmanship.
Again, I would appreciate some further clarification. If a charlatan approaches you spouting all sorts of bovine fecal matter trying to impress you with some fictitious expertise, you are extremely likely to indulge them? You would let them believe that you were falling for their act? They would receive no indication of your knowledge or expertise on the subject? And, considering the context (rec.ww), everyone reading along would also receive no indication of your knowledge or expertise. You would do this because you don't want to insult them. That way, you preserve the opportunity to have them do it to you again. And they will do it because you have demonstrated that you are such an easy mark. Maybe you need to review my "Philosophy" page:
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know of a few people that are insulted by it. I know of thousands who appreciate it. I'm really only interested in selling my products to people who want them. I would like to understand nay-sayers so that I can help people who are undecided. But, I don't want their business. I'm not looking for people to insult, but I'm not going to sacrifice my self respect and the respect of others to avoid insulting a charlatan.
Maybe I am, as you say, "dumber than snot". And, I suppose the reverse would be true if I were to allow myself to be insulted by what you have written. Isn't that what you are saying? If your coarse and vulgar manner in this message managed to insult me then you might lose the opportunity to share your woodworking expertise, skills, and methods with me. But, you probably don't care if you insult me, do you (it's a small boat, isn't it?). So, according to the way you are viewing the situation, I suppose you would have to admit that you were "dumber than snot" too - *IF* I took offense. But, I don't. I cannot deny admiration for the fine examples of your work that you show on your website. I cannot deny respect for the skill and craftsmanship that you have demonstrated. I accept that fact that your methods and techniques aren't appropriate for the sort of work that I enjoy doing. I'm not insulted, even when you characterize some of my favorite machines as "roughing tools". And, I'm not just spouting disingenuous platitudes here.
This really could be viewed in more of a "Mahayana" manner. You remember, from the "Klownhammer" thread. I really took those words to heart. And, while I don't believe that I was ever in violation of the spirit of that conversation, I have taken extra measures to live up to the letter of it. As much as I would like to believe otherwise, I'm feeling as if I'm the only one who did. Perhaps it's an example of how well deception works.
Four letter expletives aside, I expect that you care about the product first. Perhaps you are getting just a bit too idealistic here. What sort of relationship do you have with the owners and corporate officers of companies whose products you own? Are you friendly with the CEO of the company that made your car? How about your computer? Or, maybe we should talk more about products in the TS-Aligner price range. I'd bet that you have purchased thousands of products under $200 and you know absolutely nothing about the owners or CEOs of the companies that made them. Are you saying that you might not buy their products if you met them and decided that you didn't like them? Are you saying that you expect them all to be very meek, mild and polite people who have a friendly relationship with all their customers? This is just a bit over the top, don't you think? You don't believe this, not even a little bit.
Let's look at it another way (more analogous to the situation). Why don't you choose a particular product that you despise and make an appointment to see the President, CEO, or owner of the company that made it. During your visit, tell the person that you think their product is useless and insulting. At this point I'm sure that they would do their best to thank you for your feedback and offer many platitudes to help you out of their office. But, don't stop there. Inform him/her that you have spared no effort to go public in appropriate newsgroups and internet forums - seeking to convince as many as possible that they shouldn't buy the product. Then tell me what happens next. I'd bet $100 that he/she picks up the phone and calls the legal department. It might not be such a pleasant, friendly relationship after all.
Here's the point. My customers (the people who have purchased my product because they wanted it) have a very good relationship with me. Probably better than 99% of the relationships that you've had with the maker of any product you have ever purchased. If there is an angry, unhappy customer out there then they have never talked to me about it. You and Prometheus (and other nay-sayers) are not my customer. You have never purchased anything from me. You don't like my products based on perception, not experience. You profess to be insulted by their very existence. You are hostile toward me and my products. I don't even want to sell them to you. And you are making every effort to inform the public through this newsgroup that people shouldn't buy them. Having rather shallow pockets, and wanting to learn the motives of such nay-sayers, I jump into the conversation rather than call the lawyers. Suddenly I start getting compared to Rob Lee. Hmmm.....
I suppose it all depends on how you measure success. If it's measured in dollars and cents, then he is much more successful than me. If it's measured in the quality of sleep, health, personal life, sense of satisfaction, feeling of pride, then I win hands down. He tells me all the time: "Ed, you have the best job in the world!" Perhaps it's just more flattery. I'm willing to believe that he sees things in my profession that he admires - just as I see things in his that are admirable. I had his job and his income and everything that came with it. I gave it up for something that I believe in.
If he does, he never lets me see it. And, it doesn't show in his eagerness to help me out whenever I ask.
Is this really *YOUR* problem? It's a serious question. Maybe it's a problem that really doesn't concern you at all. Like I said at the top, you are taking up a perceived offense for someone else. None of my words were intended for you. Perhaps I was too hard on Prometheus. Perhaps not. Maybe he asked you to take me on. Maybe you just decided to jump into a matter which doesn't concern you.
While you might have your finger on the pulse of the Wreck, your judgment of my attitude and my abilities is very subjective. Until you actually meet me, see what I can do, and examine my work, you really are basing your opinion on very little evidence. You may believe that I'm behaving in an "elitist" manner, but many would believe that I'm being very helpful. Perhaps I should start writing in parables, then I would very clearly be demonstrating an "elitist attitude".
Thanks for the advice Tom, the joints are all reinforced. Perhaps you should have read the thread, that's why I posted the reference. I made that table about 20 years ago. I suppose I would be demonstrating an "elitist attitude" if I wrote in parables *and* patronized people. Yes, that would be a very clear demonstration of an "elitist attitude".
Do you presume to read my mind? Or, are you presuming to predict the future?
This is a point that you would not be mistaken on if you had been reading the thread. I agreed with Prometheus several times about the "field man's point". He just kept coming back over and over again about how much I insulted the jobsite woodworker and his coping skills. He even expressed outrage that I didn't want to sell to those people (just like you). The "field man" doesn't need or want my products. I don't want to sell them to him. If you want to put yourself into that category and let it insult you then there really isn't anything I can do. To quote a famous Seinfeld episode: "No soup for you!"
Well Tom, threats aside, it is your right and privilege to decide whether or not my products have any merit for you. And, quite frankly, your judgment doesn't surprise me in the least. Your methods use machinery for rough cutting wood. You don't expect your machines to provide you with the high precision and accuracy needed for joinery. You utilize hand tools for that. So, you have absolutely no use for any products which would be used to align and adjust machinery for highly accurate "finish" cutting.
What I said in the "Klownhammer" thread and also above in this message still stands. I have the greatest respect and admiration for the quality and craftsmanship of your work. So, your judgment of my products doesn't insult me in the least. And I hope it isn't an insult to agree with you about it. I don't make any effort to sell to people who see no merit in my products. But they always seem to do their best to judge the merit of my products for other people. I guess that I would be demonstrating another "elitist attitude" if I decided that my tools and methods were the only ones that had merrit.
I know several people that have much more expertise than I do on the Sherman Act. I have shared what I know and no more. It's a working knowledge based on years of experience in the reseller channel (not necessarily my own products mind you). It would probably surprise you to know that I worked quite closely with corporate lawyers for many years.
I know some people that have more skill in the machine shop than I do. I also know many people who would never attempt what I do routinely. I don't know that you have any skill or expertise in a machine shop. Your comments about the capabilities of woodworking machinery leave me wondering. If someone were to say that they were a machinist who worked in a machine shop then I would not expect them to say that they never use dial indicators.
Indeed I am not. I have no NVLAP Certificate of Accreditation. The requirements are a bit steep for what I do:
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do have the equipment (much of which has been certified with NIST traceable standards), the written inspection procedures, and the skill to carry them out in a competent manner to achieve accurate and reliable results. I can calculate an estimation of the measurement uncertainty and utilize statistical techniques for analysis of test and/or calibration data. I understand basic Metrological principles and can identify and correct common errors. But, since you have never visited my shop, and have no idea what I am capable of, then all you have is my word on it (and a history of consistent commentary in this NG).
Well, what I know comes from 15 years experience in my own machine shop. It's a working knowledge aided by the information in Machinery's Handbook. Let's just say that I know enough not to say that dead soft low carbon steel can be annealed and that it somehow becomes softer as a result.
Well, if the work on your web site is any indication, then I am most impressed. I don't have any trouble saying that your expertise exceeds my own. Sure wish that there were more close-up shots. Ever think about taking some classes in photography?
I'm sure that I have a lot to learn. While my practices are often unorthodox, so are my goals and objectives. The point is that I do run a business. And, having done it for 15+ years means that I might have a little more insight than someone who hasn't. While I don't mind all the platitudes that people offer, I do mind when they become insulted and angry with me for not taking them to heart ("I was only trying to help"). If you have been running a business for any length of time, then you understand *exactly* what I'm talking about. And, if you had taken any time to read the thread you would have seen this happen.
Yep. And your determinations have been to your satisfaction as well. Since you profess and demonstrate expertise in only one of these areas, I would be interested to know what you base your judgments on. Obviously not first hand knowledge because we have never met.
Perhaps you can explain why I should be selling my products to people who do not need them and are insulted when I describe what they do. That's what this is all about. You should have read before rambling.
Well Tom, since you are taking this perceived offense up for someone else, and I have the utmost respect for your woodworking expertise, I choose to take no offense in your assessment of me - no matter how vulgar. You can't insult me unless I decide to allow it. If you would like to base these judgments on more than just conjecture and a misplaced sense of injustice, then I would be proud to host you as a guest of my shop. Until then, such judgments are going to be meaningless.
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