Jointer Trouble

Page 5 of 6  
wrote:

FWIW, lots of these methods were developed when $10-15 Chinese dial indicators didn't exist.
Why make it harder than it is?
I don't have any of Ed's products. They WILL make things easier for those without the skills or experience to get it done with "old methods", allowing them to better get on with creating things from wood. However, as big of a Frid fan as I am, a cheapie dial indicator, using the information freely provided by Mr. Bennett, makes a _better_ setup easier and faster to obtain, using very inexpensive equipment. Ed's stuff also makes lots of sense where time is money, and spending an hour or two making setup jigs from scrap would cost more than simply buying his stuff.
I'm always shocked at how many woodworkers will toss 4-6" of EVERY board (when good wood is $5.00-$9.00 bd/ft, forget exotics!), before they'll spend $25 on a cheap dial indicator and magnetic base.
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: I'm always shocked at how many woodworkers will toss 4-6" of EVERY : board (when good wood is $5.00-$9.00 bd/ft, forget exotics!), before : they'll spend $25 on a cheap dial indicator and magnetic base.
Are you talking about planer snipe?
    -- Andy Barss
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On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 03:27:03 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss

Among other problems, yes.
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If one takes the time to understand the fundamentals of a machine in the learning days there is virtually no time or timber wasted on test cuts further down the track, or time wasted trying to figure out what is wrong by using dial indicators. The understanding from this experience wil enable one to diagnose future problems without virtually having to think about it. The dial indicator will solve this problem but it does very little towards understanding the mechanicals of what is happening.

so.
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wrote:

I totally agree!
For me it's time savings, an uber value based around a $25 indicator and magnetic base set. I can drop in a new set of knives and set them exactly the same distance, exactly parallel to the cutterhead in seconds. This is true even if the sharpener messed up the knives and didn't get the cutting edge parallel to the back edge, or the knives are slightly different widths. It took me much longer with sticks, steel rules, magnets, or anything else I used.
FWIW, years ago I used to argue on this forum about how a dial indicator was unnecessary, as I set up my machines nicely without one. Go figure... <G>
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You achieve all teh same things with carry method or dial ... just different method of measurement. THe actuall adjusting of the knives is what takes the time, not the measuring. Either method of measurement should take the same time.
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wrote:

Having used both methods for years, I can see you're either totally missing the point, or unable to have an open mind about any other method than what you're currently using.
The carry method DOES NOT take the same amount of time as the indicator. You have to set the knife, test it, adjust, test it, etc... If the cutterhead is off of TDC on any of the adjustments, it's wrong, as that knife is higher than the others..
Using an indicator and referencing the cutterhead allows one to drop the knife in, raise it to a predetermined point, tighten the screws and move on. All this is done in maybe 15 seconds per knife! <G> It takes me longer to walk across the shop and get the indicator and fresh knife set than it does to actually replace a full set of knives on my DJ-20.
I'm going to agree to disagree and move on. Your method seems to work wonderfully for you, and I know that's the most important point. I argued your side for years, tried the other way and never looked back.
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wrote:

It's clear that you've never used a dial indicator to set jointer knives. Before I bought a TS-Aligner, I used to set my jointer knives using the "carry method" too -- and it works just fine, don't get me wrong, I got fine results that way. But after the first time that I set jointer knives using the dial indicator, I abandoned the carry method permanently because the dial indicator is so much faster (and more accurate, besides).
In a nutshell: with the carry method, you have to see how far the straightedge is carried, adjust the knife what you hope is the right amount, and check the carry again -- and *repeat* this process until the carry is where you want it. Even if your first adjustment was dead-on perfect, you still have to check the carry again to verify it.
With the dial indicator, you set the stylus on the knife and turn the adjusting screw until the indicator reads zero. DONE.
The time required isn't anywhere nearly the same. You have no basis for claiming that it is. I've used both methods. You haven't. And you're badly mistaken.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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In answer to your reference ti trying dial indicator ..... yes I have as regards to accuracy ... do a little trig and calculate the height of an arc for say a 3" circle So we shall just agree to disagree
wrote:

what
take
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results
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wrote:

Sorry, but I simply do not believe that. The dial indicator is so much faster that anyone who really had used both methods would never claim that the time required is the same -- and the fact that you *haven't* used a dial indicator to set jointer knives is betrayed by the way you phrased your statement, too: "Either method of measurement SHOULD take the same time." [emphasis added] In other words, you *know* how long it takes with the method you use, but you're only *speculating* that setting them with a dial indicator "should" take the same time. It doesn't.

I never said that the carry method was not accurate, only that the dial indicator was *more* accurate. It is. And anyone who had ever used both methods of setting jointer knives would know that, too.

Obviously.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Yes, of course, the math.
In order for the "carry" method to be as accurate as the dial indicator, the chord length must be less than 1/8" (chord height =0.0013" for length 0.125" on a 3" circle). This seems easy enough in theory. Unfortunately in my experience the practice leaves a bit to be desired. Like I said, measuring the results with a dial indicator reveal nowhere near this level of accuracy. So, there must be other uncontrolled variables affecting my outcome (I have no problem admitting that I'm no good at it). I've suggested one that would result in a carry which is significantly shorter than the chord length (a dull knife). It's not too hard to think of others (weight, friction, speed, etc.).
It's likely that some people find this method easy and accurate because they control these variables (knowingly or not) much better than I do. Or, it could be that they have low expectations of their machine and never check the results with an indicator. If I hadn't checked my results with an indicator I would never have known that they were inaccurate (and I would never have known just how well my jointer could perform). And, I suppose that some people believe that the "carry" method is faster than a dial indicator because they are unfamiliar with indicators (i.e. never tried it or did all the wrong things when they did).
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com http://www.ts-aligner.com
Paul D wrote:

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Hi Paul,
Like I said in the previous reply, using a dial indicator doesn't let you ignore what the adjustments do or what they should be set to. You still have to understand the fundamentals. The dial indicator just gives you quick and and accurate feedback.
You seem to be avoiding one fact about adjusting machinery. You have to know how much adjustment is needed, or you need to get feedback on your adjustment in order to know if you have done enough. If you don't use an accurate measurement device (like a dial indicator), then your only feedback is going to be test cuts You can't adjust the infeed table on a jointer (to make it parallel with the outfeed table) without an accurate measurement device (like a dial indicator) or test cuts.
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com http://www.ts-aligner.com
Paul D wrote:

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wrong by

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Well Paul, I think that we're getting nowhere in this discussion. You changed your tune. It started with you saying:
"you dont need dial indicators ... only implements required to set up jointer accuratly is a cpl of pieces of timber. Let the machine talk to you and tell you what the prob is rather than trying to find an interpretor to talk to the machine"
While it stretches this idea of yours, I can see how you do the "carry" method with just a piece of wood (even though it is acting as an "interpretor" for you). But, now that you are backed into a corner with the infeed table adjustment, you add a steel straight edge. Sounds like another "interpretor" to me. It tells me a couple of things. First, you are not speaking from experience. You are making this up as you go along. This "jointerese" stuff that you advocate has some degree of logic (everybody diagnoses problems based on symptoms) but it breaks down when theory becomes practice (it will take a week if you insist on doing adjustments by measuring the results of test cuts).
Second, it tells me that you really aren't interested in helping the OP with his problem. You aren't even interested in the topic of jointer alignment. You are simply arguing against the use of dial indicators. You talk about having a bunch of dial indicators but it is apparent from the absurd and rediculous scenarios you propose that you don't have the slightest idea how to use them and haven't made any effort to learn. I could go on and on dispelling all of your objections and still get nowhere. And, you don't give any consideration to my points. You are not being intellectually honest, you have an agenda.
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com http://www.ts-aligner.com
Paul D wrote:

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required
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Paul D wrote:

Not a personal attack, just simple deduction. It's apparent that your original "let the machine talk to you" method has morphed considerably. Interpreters (measurement devices) are now allowed so long as they are not a dial indicator. And, it's obvious from your characterizations that you want the dial indicator solution to look ridiculous.

Ya, it's a shame. So, you're just a hobbyist? I thought you said something about getting paid for your woodworking? You can always visit my web site to learn a bit about my history and experience.

You could say that.

I understand that you started by telling the OP the following:
"you dont need dial indicators ... only implements required to set up jointer accuratly is a cpl of pieces of timber. Let the machine talk to you and tell you what the prob is rather than trying to find an interpretor to talk to the machine
Be at one with the machine and 'feel the force' "
I don't know anybody who can "set up a jointer accurately" with this sort of advice. Since it was a direct reply to one of my messages, I decided to respond. I thought I was being fairly polite in that response and even a little light hearted with the term "jointerese".
If you had meant to tell the OP about using straight edges and the "carry" method and stuffing shimms into tiny gaps, then perhaps you should have said so and left out the BS about talking machines and feeling the force. It's only natural for me to compare your current proposed method to the original post and decide that there have been some inconsistencies.

Well, the problem is that your advice to the OP didn't say anything about how to "set up a jointer accurately" except to "let the machine talk to you". Assuming that you weren't being literal (machines olny "talk" to certain people when they forget to take their medication), I figured that your reference to a "cpl pieces of timber" naturally menat "test cuts". If you meant to include more, and elaborate on the "carry" method then perhaps you should have. You seemed to remember the part about "you dont need dial indicators" but you managed to forget the part about "set up a jointer accurately".

So, we're not talking "jointerese" anymore?

That's what I did. Why do you think it appears a bit strange to me? Do you think that your description on how to do jointer alignment has been consistent the whole time?

Hmmmm.....Yep, you did say what you thought the problem might be. You gave him three suggestions (ignore the fence, check the knives, and check the infeed table). Then you launched into the whole jointerese thing. Care to review it yourself?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/msg/69c4036c32c4c826
There's nothing in your message about how to do any jointer alignment except to say "you don't need dial indicators" and "let the machine talk to you".

You said "you don't need dial indicators" and "let the machine talk to you". You didn't tell him how to do anything. There was no real method described. No procedure that could be "performed immediately". Nothing.

Absolutely. If you are going to play the "personal attack" card, try to make dial indicators look ridiculous, and avoid addressing the issues that I raise, then there is no point in discussing anything. Of course, you can always admit that this "let the machine talk to you" stuff wasn't really a description on how to align a jointer. You could also admit that you have deliberately used absurd descriptions to characterize the use of dial indicators as ridiculous. And, you can admit that the "personal attack" crap is an effort to deflect some rather pointed issues which you would rather not discuss. Only then can we have a good, honest discussion.

Thirty lashes for the next Aligner! (No Aligner leaves the shop without being flogged).
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com http://www.ts-aligner.com
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ED As far as I am concerned all issues of the OP have been adressed and I for one wish to not waste my time on this matter. At least I am man enough to to say ley it go when it is going nowhere and move on. I just hope in months to come as you get to know a little more about me if I stick around that you are man enough to offer a public appology in this group for your misconceptions.
Just to clear up your misconceptions about the post I have copied a few lines from my first 2 posts. Do no interperet the upper case as shouting, it is just the easiest way to differentiate between copied posts and my comments.
FROM FIRST POST
If the knives are not parallel to outfeed table (one side high) there will be rocking as the board moves to tha outfeed table which you should be able to feel. A common error for ppl learning to use a jointer is they place tooooooo much force trying to hold timber down. You don't need to stand on a board to keep it flat, your main purpose is to guide the board through. A reasonable gentle touch is all that is required.From the description it sounds very much like the infeed table is not parallel to outfeed table but knives are parallel to outfeed. This would cause more to be planed from one side than the other and increase the amount of error with each successive pass. I BELIEVE THAT ADDRESSES ISSUES OF BOTH MACHINE AND OPERATOR ERROR
my suggestions would be
1. Ignore the fence ..... nothing to do with face jointing. If the fence is not square to table when jointing a edge the angle would not change with successive passes, it would always remain tha same degree of error, even after 100 passes.
2. Check and adjust knives to outfeed table .... both level with and parallel to outfeed table
3. Check infeed table for level in relation to outfeed table either by measurement or Let teh machine tell you what is wrong. Run piece through jointer (E end first, mark on timber so you dont get as confused as we are) ... measure. If out of parallel feed back through jointer opposite end first ( F end) ... measure. If board now same thickness either side (within reason) your infeed table is not parallel to outfeed. mmmmmm guess I know what your doing for the next cpl of hours
THAT IN ITSELF CONFIRMS IF THE TABLE IS THE PROBLEM.
FROM SECOND POST NOT JUST PUSHING ONE METHOD .... OFFERED BOTH. MORE EXPLANATION OFFERED ON SECOND METHOD AS THAT I WHAT I USE, PREFER AND KNOW BEST. IT WAS OFFERED FOR THAT REASON AND NO OTHER
You can go down the dial indicator track if you want to go that way. I just find it a lot of unnessary effort. NOTE THAT I SAID THAT "I FIND IT UNNECESSARY"
THIS PARAGRAPH DESCRIBES 3 DIFFERENT STRAIGHT EDGES THAT CAN BE USED A simple tool to do exactly the same job just as quick a straight edge. be it a straight piece of timber. a small ruler of either plastic or steel doesnt really matter. I can hear ppl shuddering now at the thought of using a steel rule but if used correctly it will do no damage whatsoever to the blades, if it does buy a set of better quality blades. THIS SOUNDS VERY MUCH LIKE INSTRUCTIONS ON SETTING IT UP TO ME USING EITHER TIMBER, PLASTIC OR STEEL. I SUPPOSE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE MORE PRECISE HERE ... A STRAIGHT PIECE OF TIMBER IS BASICALLY A RULE WITHOUT MEASUREMENTS ON IT AND I USE A STAINLESS STEEL RULE.
To find top dead centre of knife rotation Place rule on rear table. start to rotate knife by hand as soon as it hits the straight edge (remember you are placing no pressure on the straight edge it is just sitting there)... place a mark on the fence keep rotating cutter until knife clears straight edge ..... place another mark on fence measure half way between these 2 points align knife to middle mark ... and you are now on TDC SOUNDS STRAIGHT FORWARD TO ME
OK now to set blade height bring each knife to TDC and adjust to straight edge. Knives are parrellel to and level with outfeed table. It will take you longer to undo the nuts on the cutter than it will to set the knives. You will 'feel' the knife on the straight edge. If a little unsure rotate cutter by hand straight edge should not move more than 1/32", you dont have to measure it you can see the straight edge move and guess how much. If your hearing is better than your eyesight all you have to do is listen to machine and it will tell you when its right. You can hear the knife scraping the straightedge. IT EVEN OFFERED 2 WAYS OF TELLING WHEN KNIFE IS AT RIGHT HEIGHT
Without knowing the dia of cutter block to do exact calculations this will be within a thou A variation to this that some ppl use is basically the same method as when you are finding TDC. The straight edge should move the same distance on each end of the knife and on each knife. Only downside to doing it this way is that you will then have to adjust the outfeed table to match the knife height. LOOK AT THAT .... I EVEN EVEN MADE A MENTION OF A DOWNSIDE TO THAT METHOD. I BELEIVE IT IS REFERED TO IN HERE AS THE CARRY METHOD
AND WHATS THIS ... EVEN A SIMPLE WAY FOR BEGINNERS The first few times you set up a set of knives it could be a little fiddly but once you get the feel of it it only takes a cpl of minutes to adjust a set of knives. The hardest part is usually learning how much to move the knife. I easiest way is to just nip up the 2 outside bolts on cutter just enough so knife doesnt move. Set the knife a little high and tap back down with a piece of wood to set correct height. Tighten bolts and recheck measurement.
LOOK AT THAT WE REALY ARE GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES .... BACK TO FIRST 2 POSTS AGAIN. I NEED WASTE NO MORE TIME I REST MY CASE
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Noted. I guess I was wrong Paul. All along I thought that you were deliberately trying to dissuade people from using dial indicators. The alternative was just too difficult for me to believe. But, if you insist, then I believe that *FOR YOU* using a dial indicator is a lot of "unnecessary effort". And, the characterizations that I thought were deliberately "ridiculous" apparently reflect the actual difficulty that *YOU* have understanding and using this simple measurement device. Sorry, I suppose I grossly misjudged your knowledge, abilities, and expertise.
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com http://www.ts-aligner.com
Paul D wrote: <snip>

<snip>
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I suspect it's operator. If the knives will "carry" a piece resting on the outfeed table at either end, and check all three knives, then you need to adjust them. Don't know if your outfeed table is adjustable or not. Some aren't. You need them to kiss, not carry more than 1/8" on all three, and no jazzbo gage is necessary. Your 1,2,3 block will be milled right enough. If they're high, they'll snipe the trailing edge, if low, the board will hit the outfeed table. Imagine you've got jackscrews, or at the least, springs to raise the knives when loosened. If not, time to get some cow magnets and hold the knives up with them.
Got to be a half-dozen jointer adjust sites out there. I use my book, and it's the same.
Now remember that you have to watch what you're doing. You really can't effectively reference a broad face to a narrow one, so sight the broad face for twist or bow, setting the board over the guard and sliding the guard aside to take off high spots at each end, or cross-corner. Hand plane will do it too. Once you've a sighted surface, plane it all, using the blocks and pressure over the point where the board contacts the outfeed table.
Now go back and reference the broad surface to your 90 degree fence, sighting the board as before and removing high spots with partial passes. Often when ripping boards the tension in the wood will cause some bow or twist, which is why you rip a bit oversize, and plane only after ripping and facing. Gets you straight stock you don't have to bully into position with clamps or fasteners.
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snip
I initially found it a rather rude surprise that a 6 1/4 inch jointer/planer (or any other size) could not reliably plane two parallel sides.......what you are trying to do is not what the tool wants or can do very well.....You can joint one edge and one side with your jointer then use a thickness planer (different tool) to do the other side and then your table saw for the other edge ......but with a jointer only you will not get the result you desire.....Can't blame Sears for this one<G>....Rod
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