Jointer expectations from the mill?

[Tom Watson]

Bill:

I believe that what you really wanted is what is called SLR1E in the lumber trade.

This stands for Straight Line Ripped One Edge and is the creation of a reference edge for sitting against your table saw fence.

This allows you to cut a line parallel to the ripped edge, so that you wind up with a board of equal width throughout its length.

They don't actually use a jointer to do this jointing but use a straight line ripping saw to cut the straight line.

Lumber terminology can be confusing. S2S usually means planing both faces of the board to a given dimension. You may also specify that it only be skip planed to a given dimension, which may give you hollows on one or both faces.

S4S is used as a designation in softwood rendering and produces dimension lumber, such as 2x4 and 2x6 etc.

When I was ordering a lot of hardwood lumber for my shop I would buy it skip planed to 13/16" with one face flat and an edge done SLR1E.

This gave me a reference edge for the table saw and a reference for the planing. I didn't want the rough planers that the yard used to bring my sticks any closer to final thickness because my little lunchbox planer, with me paying close attention to grain direction and depth of cut, could produce a far nicer face.

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

[Andrew Barss]

Ah, good one, sport! Very nice. Bigot are ya?

With a sense of humor like that, I'm sure lots of people laugh at you.

Here I quote you, a couple posts back:

"Surfaced" (S2S, S2S1E, etc.) stock is primarily sold to folks who don't own jointers, or don't want to have to. You do NOT have to specify that it be "jointed" if the dealer is following accepted industry standards/practices. Until you admit that basic concept, there is no further point in listening to your misconceptions.'

:> : "Surfaced" (S2S, S2S1E, etc.) stock is primarily sold to folks who don't : own :> : jointers, or don't want to have to. :>

:> Actually, a lot of it is sold to people who don't know what a jointer is, : nor care.

: Read it again ... then read what you parroted.

Oookay... done. You imply in the quote above that if a person buys S2S lumber there is no need to run it through a jointer, i.e. it's already been done. And that's what you're wrong about. I'm not parroting, that's a direct quote up there.

:> If you're putting up some shelves in the garage to hold stuff, you might : not :> care (or notice) that a board has some twist, or cup, to it. If you're :> a carpenter and puting up soffits, you probbaly don't care that the boards : aren't :> the flat you get from a jointer. :>

:> And a lot of S2S is sold to people who simply aren't near a :> mill. I have several excellent hardwood suppliers within driving :> distance, but I can't buy rough lumber from them -- they don't buy it.

: And that proves what?

Your post led me to believe that you thought that

a) if a person buys S2S, it's because doing so makes having a jointer unnecessary.

b) if a person doesn't own a jointer, he/she ought to buy S2S lumber.

I was noting that a person can buy S2S lumber for other reasons, including the lack of an alternative. I can get some 50 or so domestic and exotic hardwoods within a 15-minute drive from my house. Every stick and board is S2S or better.

:> You do NOT have to specify that it be :> : "jointed" if the dealer is following accepted industry : standards/practices.

Go. Look. Up. What. The. Terms. Actually. Mean.

As another poster noted, these terms are defined in the industry. You don't get to redefine them at will.

S2S = surfaced two sides, on a planer. S2S1E = that, plus straight-line ripped on one edge.

If you don't believe me, ask someone in the industry. Call a mill or a hardwood supplier and ask them to define it. You'll get the same information. Look it up in a book if you can.

S2S =/= surfaced on ANY side with a jointer.

:> : Until you admit that basic concept, there is no further point in : listening :> : to your misconceptions.

Back at ya.

: What, in saying that you don't have to specify "jointing" when purchasing : S2S1E lumber?

: Once again, it is simply NOT necessary!

You're either deliberately being thick, or you got a comprehension problem.

: Now, let's just cut to the chase. Rather than dignify any further responses : from you with replies, lets just say you are still the d*****ad you were : back when ostriches were from Australia, so, once again, go f*ck yourself.

What are you, thirteen?

-- Andy Barss

[Tom Watson]

Let us assume for a moment that there is a governing body that is in the position to adjudicate in such matters.

Let us further assume that their name is The National Hardwood Lumber Association.

Let us continue to make assumptions to the point where we have to get into our pockets and buy their manual - as I have - which says thus:

"S2S stands for surfaced two sides and means that the two wider faces of the lumber (front and back) are planed smooth. The edges will still be rough.

S4S stands for surfaces four sides and is the same as S2S plus the edges are straight and parallel.

SLR1E stands for straight-line ripped one edge, meaning that one side is straight the other will still be rough. S4S requires S2S and SLR1E."

Then, let us back away from our now not needed assumptions and ask this question:

"What the f*ck are you talking about?"

You used to be such a nice little fellow.

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

[Andrew Barss]

:

:>: Now, let's just cut to the chase. Rather than dignify any further responses :>: from you with replies, lets just say you are still the d*****ad you were :>: back when ostriches were from Australia, so, once again, go f*ck yourself. :>

:>

:>What are you, thirteen? :>

:>

:> -- Andy Barssus continue to make assumptions untill

: Let us assume for a moment that there is a governing body that is in : the position to adjudicate in such matters.

: Let us further assume that their name is The National Hardwood Lumber : Association.

: Let us continue to make assumptions to the point where we have to get : into our pockets and buy their manual - as I have - which says thus:

: "S2S stands for surfaced two sides and means that the two wider faces : of the lumber (front and back) are planed smooth. The edges will still : be rough.

Notice the word "planed" above when you typed it? Do you know what it means? It means "run through a planer". It does not mean "run over a jointer". There's a different word for that. Guess what it is.

: Then, let us back away from our now not needed assumptions and ask : this question:

: "What the f*ck are you talking about?"

I guess you have trouble reading and understanding as well. You and Swingman might want to hire a tutor.

: You used to be such a nice little fellow.

I haven't been little for quite some time, but I am nice.

You're condescending and pompous, apparently, at least from your recent posts.

-- Andy Barss

P.S. *Very* witty thing up there, with the mispelling of my name. Kudos! I mean, really, really well-done.

[Tom Watson]

Once again, you've missed the truth.

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

[Joe Bemier]

Actually, I did not think he was directing this to you. So maybe I'm confused as well. Anyway, TW's info corresponds to my understanding of terms.

[Doug Miller]

In article , Group wrote: [snippola]

And mine, and Andy's. Nobody has been arguing over what the terms mean.

The dispute has been over the need to joint S2S lumber to get it flat (or perceived lack of need, on the part of one particularly condescending, arrogant, and completely incorrect loudmouth).

[Swingman]

Part of the problem here is pathetically obvious ... the misconception that the art of buying lumber can be learned from a Google search.

[Swingman]

Wrong again ... the "dispute" has been all along your erroneous contention that you need to specify "jointing".

BTW, you don't need to earn new terms from Andy, Doug ... just look in the mirror.

[Swingman]

Just to add to that ... some hardwood dealers sell hardwoods S4S to those willing to pay the generally high price so as not to have to mill it themselves, as well as S4S hardwoods is all the BORG's sell in their generally meager hardwood inventory.

A valuable practice for a man who has learned the art of buying hardwoods.

Again, just to add to that: Skip planing, or "hit n' miss" as we call it down here, can also give the hardwood lumber buyer a reasonable idea of the figure and suitability when choosing wood for a project before he leaves the lumber yard.

I recommended S2S1E to the OP, because if learns how to pick his lumber, learning that art with both sides surfaced until he gets the hang of it, he has much better chance of satisfaction than he had previously received when ordering his lumber "jointed", including the convenience being able to rip to width and planing to thickness with the tools he already owned.

[Doug Miller]

You still don't get it, do you?

The only erroneous contention made in this thread has been your completely wrongheaded (and so far totally unexplained) claim that buying S2S lumber somehow makes it unnecessary to specify that you want it jointed.

I repeat: if you want your lumber jointed, then you need to specify that you want it jointed, otherwise it won't be.

[Doug Miller]

So you recommend to the guy who does NOT have a jointer that he should STOP buying jointed lumber, and instead buy lumber that has NOT been jointed, so that when he planes to thickness he's now referencing against an UNjointed face when previously he had been referencing against a jointed (and therefore flat) face.

And you claim he'll have better satisfaction and convenience.

I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what a jointer is for.

[Swingman]

What you apear to be missing is that "jointing", as the term has been used in this thread, is not part of the process of producing SxS hardwood lumber ... "planing" and/or SLR (straight line rip) is.

And, once again, you do NOT need to specify "jointing" when buying SxS lumber.

Ahhhh ... now that I DO agree with.

Although, it is not normally done and, IME, most hardwood lumber yards won't deal with it except at a much higher price, if at all.

Around here a "millwork" will have a jointer, but I wouldn't bet that all hardwood lumber dealers or yards will as a matter of course ... and this is an area historically known for its hardwood production.

And once more, It is an every day practice that, if you pick your SxSxE lumber correctly, you can get by without a jointer ... as the OP as been advised now by quite of a few of those with a better grasp of the situation than you appear to be.

While these facts are inarguable, you will no doubt find a way.

... nuff said. Knock yourself out on the subject.

[George]

Well, it's certainly unprofitable to state even the obvious to you. As earlier, "Jointing" has nothing to do with surfacing terminology. As a matter for fact, as many people who have contributed to this thread have mentioned, jointing can only be accomplished once there is a flat face to reference. The mill edger grabs and compresses the board faces, running it through a gang saw at standard widths. The board may still have wane here and there, can and does twist, bow and warp after this treatment, which is normally performed green. That's why milled lumber is undersized. They have to take away wood to get it flat and straight. They can do one or both edges again, as you prefer. You pay for the waste.

The powered method for gaining a reference surface to join to is to employ a Jointer, though a good thickness planer, careful work, and maybe a fiddly fussy sled can ultimately get a flat face on most boards. Hand planes can get a reasonable face fairly quickly as well, and may be the only choice for wide stock, though only a fool, in my opinion, would surface fully with a hand plane when all he has to do is knock off major deviations to allow the table of the planer to bridge the remaining gaps. Used to do a full demo of manual stock preparation every year for every class, and that was enough. Concept understood, we all took advantage of technology thereafter.

The purpose of a machine is to simplify a task. Those who want to construct secondary fences or transport sleds to join an edge on their tablesaw, shaper or router table are certainly welcome to do so, as are those who pronounce jointers a waste of money and then brag of LN planes costing more than a good machine. It isn't the project that counts for them, but the process.

If the OP is Of the "expectations" thread is reading, get a jointer first. It simplifies everything. Most furniture does not need precisely thicknessed wood, note the furniture produced up into the middle of the nineteenth century, but it does demand, or at least benefit from a square, straight edge. A jointer will get you there faster, whether it's "good enough" thicknessing or straight, square edges.

A planer is primarily for people who do _not_ purchase fully surfaced stock, where it is always wise to know the language before you go ask for something. No button at the lumber yard or mill for either Spanish or Novice. If you want something, you'll have to learn how to ask, and you'll also have to learn how to check, because the people behind the counter are often only as knowledgeable as the words on their computer screens.

[Swingman]

Hmmm ... seems that I had just clearly stated that. So why the superfulous crap along with it?

That said, it's good to see that you agree.

but, you just started this thread. ;)

No argument whatsoever ...

Again, no argument .. AAMOF, well stated.

Again, you're preaching to the choir ... too damn bad you had to start off with the derogatory bullshit

I can't agree with that in it's entirety ... but different strokes. I would prefer to say that it really depends upon what you do in woodworking that determines the need for a specific tool, and in what order.

A planer is primarily used by most woodworkers to dimension to suitable thickness and provide a suitable surface.

Hmmm .. once again, I clearly stated that in my very first post on this subject. Nice to see that you agree.

[Doug Miller]

No, I'm not missing that at all. I understand that clearly. What *you* are missing is that since jointing is not part of that process, then SxS lumber still _needs_to_be_jointed_.

Took you long enough -- that's, what, the sixth or seventh time I've said that?

Which is exactly why I've been saying all along that if you want it jointed, it IS necessary to specify that.

I have a perfectly good grasp of the situation -- but you still haven't grasped the FACT that S2S lumber is NOT dead flat.

If you realize it's not dead flat, and accept that anyway, fine. I prefer using lumber that is, and hence I joint mine before using it.

If you think it is dead flat, then you should probably visit an optometrist before your next trip to the lumberyard.

You haven't stated any facts yet...

[Doug Miller]

.. which is why, if you want wood that's straight and flat, you don't buy wood that's been planed but *not* jointed.

BTW, I think I just figured out why you've been so confused by this discussion: you've been reading the word "jointed" and assuming that everyone who uses it is talking about *edge* jointing only, without realizing that the context makes it quite plain that we've been talking about *face* jointing.

See if you like this restatement of my first paragraph here better:

.. which is why, if you want wood that's straight and flat, you don't buy wood that's been planed but *not* jointed one face and one edge.

[Jay Pique]

You're right, Doug, and have been right throughout this thread. That said, I think it's time to move on.

JP

[Tom Watson]

A literary reference. And on exactly the level I would have expected. Very impressive, Andy.

(if you speak with tongue in cheek but you have a sharp tongue, you run the risk of doing yourself an injury)

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

[Swingman]

Try again ...