Jointer expectations from the mill?

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: "Andrew Barss" wrote in message
: give it up, that rarified air in academia is not up to the task.
Ah, good one, sport! Very nice. Bigot are ya?
With a sense of humor like that, I'm sure lots of people laugh at you.
Here I quote you, a couple posts back:
"Surfaced" (S2S, S2S1E, etc.) stock is primarily sold to folks who don't own jointers, or don't want to have to. You do NOT have to specify that it be "jointed" if the dealer is following accepted industry standards/practices. Until you admit that basic concept, there is no further point in listening to your misconceptions.'
:> : "Surfaced" (S2S, S2S1E, etc.) stock is primarily sold to folks who don't: own :> : jointers, or don't want to have to.:> :> Actually, a lot of it is sold to people who don't know what a jointer is,: nor care.
: Read it again ... then read what you parroted.
Oookay... done. You imply in the quote above that if a person buys S2S lumber there is no need to run it through a jointer, i.e. it's already been done. And that's what you're wrong about. I'm not parroting, that's a direct quote up there.
:> If you're putting up some shelves in the garage to hold stuff, you might: not :> care (or notice) that a board has some twist, or cup, to it. If you're :> a carpenter and puting up soffits, you probbaly don't care that the boards: aren't :> the flat you get from a jointer.:> :> And a lot of S2S is sold to people who simply aren't near a :> mill. I have several excellent hardwood suppliers within driving :> distance, but I can't buy rough lumber from them -- they don't buy it. : And that proves what?
Your post led me to believe that you thought that
a) if a person buys S2S, it's because doing so makes having a jointer unnecessary.
b) if a person doesn't own a jointer, he/she ought to buy S2S lumber.
I was noting that a person can buy S2S lumber for other reasons, including the lack of an alternative. I can get some 50 or so domestic and exotic hardwoods within a 15-minute drive from my house. Every stick and board is S2S or better.
:> You do NOT have to specify that it be :> : "jointed" if the dealer is following accepted industry: standards/practices.
Go. Look. Up. What. The. Terms. Actually. Mean.
As another poster noted, these terms are defined in the industry. You don't get to redefine them at will.
S2S = surfaced two sides, on a planer. S2S1E = that, plus straight-line ripped on one edge.
If you don't believe me, ask someone in the industry. Call a mill or a hardwood supplier and ask them to define it. You'll get the same information. Look it up in a book if you can.
S2S =/= surfaced on ANY side with a jointer.
:> : Until you admit that basic concept, there is no further point in: listening :> : to your misconceptions. Back at ya.
: What, in saying that you don't have to specify "jointing" when purchasing : S2S1E lumber?
: Once again, it is simply NOT necessary!
You're either deliberately being thick, or you got a comprehension problem.
: Now, let's just cut to the chase. Rather than dignify any further responses : from you with replies, lets just say you are still the dickhead you were : back when ostriches were from Australia, so, once again, go fuck yourself.
What are you, thirteen?
    -- Andy Barss
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On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 02:55:40 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
<snipped for sanitary purposes>

Let us assume for a moment that there is a governing body that is in the position to adjudicate in such matters.
Let us further assume that their name is The National Hardwood Lumber Association.
Let us continue to make assumptions to the point where we have to get into our pockets and buy their manual - as I have - which says thus:
"S2S stands for surfaced two sides and means that the two wider faces of the lumber (front and back) are planed smooth. The edges will still be rough.
S4S stands for surfaces four sides and is the same as S2S plus the edges are straight and parallel.
SLR1E stands for straight-line ripped one edge, meaning that one side is straight the other will still be rough. S4S requires S2S and SLR1E."
Then, let us back away from our now not needed assumptions and ask this question:
"What the fuck are you talking about?"
You used to be such a nice little fellow.
Regards,
Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 /
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: On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 02:55:40 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
: <snipped for sanitary purposes>
:>: Now, let's just cut to the chase. Rather than dignify any further responses :>: from you with replies, lets just say you are still the dickhead you were :>: back when ostriches were from Australia, so, once again, go fuck yourself.:> :> :>What are you, thirteen? :> :> :>    -- Andy Barssus continue to make assumptions untill
: Let us assume for a moment that there is a governing body that is in : the position to adjudicate in such matters.
: Let us further assume that their name is The National Hardwood Lumber : Association.
: Let us continue to make assumptions to the point where we have to get : into our pockets and buy their manual - as I have - which says thus:
: "S2S stands for surfaced two sides and means that the two wider faces : of the lumber (front and back) are planed smooth. The edges will still : be rough.
Notice the word "planed" above when you typed it? Do you know what it means? It means "run through a planer". It does not mean "run over a jointer". There's a different word for that. Guess what it is.
: Then, let us back away from our now not needed assumptions and ask : this question:
: "What the fuck are you talking about?"
I guess you have trouble reading and understanding as well. You and Swingman might want to hire a tutor.
: You used to be such a nice little fellow.
I haven't been little for quite some time, but I am nice.
You're condescending and pompous, apparently, at least from your recent posts.
    -- Andy Barss
P.S. *Very* witty thing up there, with the mispelling of my name. Kudos! I mean, really, really well-done.
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On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 04:13:45 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss

Once again, you've missed the truth.
Regards,
Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
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On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 04:13:45 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss

Actually, I did not think he was directing this to you. So maybe I'm confused as well. Anyway, TW's info corresponds to my understanding of terms.
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[snippola]

And mine, and Andy's. Nobody has been arguing over what the terms mean.
The dispute has been over the need to joint S2S lumber to get it flat (or perceived lack of need, on the part of one particularly condescending, arrogant, and completely incorrect loudmouth).
--
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message

Wrong again ... the "dispute" has been all along your erroneous contention that you need to specify "jointing".
BTW, you don't need to earn new terms from Andy, Doug ... just look in the mirror.
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You still don't get it, do you?
The only erroneous contention made in this thread has been your completely wrongheaded (and so far totally unexplained) claim that buying S2S lumber somehow makes it unnecessary to specify that you want it jointed.
I repeat: if you want your lumber jointed, then you need to specify that you want it jointed, otherwise it won't be.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message

"Swingman" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message

What you apear to be missing is that "jointing", as the term has been used in this thread, is not part of the process of producing SxS hardwood lumber ... "planing" and/or SLR (straight line rip) is.
And, once again, you do NOT need to specify "jointing" when buying SxS lumber.

Ahhhh ... now that I DO agree with.
Although, it is not normally done and, IME, most hardwood lumber yards won't deal with it except at a much higher price, if at all.
Around here a "millwork" will have a jointer, but I wouldn't bet that all hardwood lumber dealers or yards will as a matter of course ... and this is an area historically known for its hardwood production.
And once more, It is an every day practice that, if you pick your SxSxE lumber correctly, you can get by without a jointer ... as the OP as been advised now by quite of a few of those with a better grasp of the situation than you appear to be.
While these facts are inarguable, you will no doubt find a way.
... nuff said. Knock yourself out on the subject.
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Well, it's certainly unprofitable to state even the obvious to you. As earlier, "Jointing" has nothing to do with surfacing terminology. As a matter for fact, as many people who have contributed to this thread have mentioned, jointing can only be accomplished once there is a flat face to reference. The mill edger grabs and compresses the board faces, running it through a gang saw at standard widths. The board may still have wane here and there, can and does twist, bow and warp after this treatment, which is normally performed green. That's why milled lumber is undersized. They have to take away wood to get it flat and straight. They can do one or both edges again, as you prefer. You pay for the waste.
The powered method for gaining a reference surface to join to is to employ a Jointer, though a good thickness planer, careful work, and maybe a fiddly fussy sled can ultimately get a flat face on most boards. Hand planes can get a reasonable face fairly quickly as well, and may be the only choice for wide stock, though only a fool, in my opinion, would surface fully with a hand plane when all he has to do is knock off major deviations to allow the table of the planer to bridge the remaining gaps. Used to do a full demo of manual stock preparation every year for every class, and that was enough. Concept understood, we all took advantage of technology thereafter.
The purpose of a machine is to simplify a task. Those who want to construct secondary fences or transport sleds to join an edge on their tablesaw, shaper or router table are certainly welcome to do so, as are those who pronounce jointers a waste of money and then brag of LN planes costing more than a good machine. It isn't the project that counts for them, but the process.
If the OP is Of the "expectations" thread is reading, get a jointer first. It simplifies everything. Most furniture does not need precisely thicknessed wood, note the furniture produced up into the middle of the nineteenth century, but it does demand, or at least benefit from a square, straight edge. A jointer will get you there faster, whether it's "good enough" thicknessing or straight, square edges.
A planer is primarily for people who do _not_ purchase fully surfaced stock, where it is always wise to know the language before you go ask for something. No button at the lumber yard or mill for either Spanish or Novice. If you want something, you'll have to learn how to ask, and you'll also have to learn how to check, because the people behind the counter are often only as knowledgeable as the words on their computer screens.
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"George" wrote in message

Hmmm ... seems that I had just clearly stated that. So why the superfulous crap along with it?
That said, it's good to see that you agree.

but, you just started this thread. ;)

No argument whatsoever ...

Again, no argument .. AAMOF, well stated.

Again, you're preaching to the choir ... too damn bad you had to start off with the derogatory bullshit

I can't agree with that in it's entirety ... but different strokes. I would prefer to say that it really depends upon what you do in woodworking that determines the need for a specific tool, and in what order.

A planer is primarily used by most woodworkers to dimension to suitable thickness and provide a suitable surface.

Hmmm .. once again, I clearly stated that in my very first post on this subject. Nice to see that you agree.
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.. which is why, if you want wood that's straight and flat, you don't buy wood that's been planed but *not* jointed.
BTW, I think I just figured out why you've been so confused by this discussion: you've been reading the word "jointed" and assuming that everyone who uses it is talking about *edge* jointing only, without realizing that the context makes it quite plain that we've been talking about *face* jointing.
See if you like this restatement of my first paragraph here better:
.. which is why, if you want wood that's straight and flat, you don't buy wood that's been planed but *not* jointed one face and one edge.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message

Not necessarily ... But I think I've figured out where _we_ have BOTH been confused about the other's contentions.
Kindly hear me out before snapping back ... thanks.
Looking back over the thread this afternoon trying to figure out where it went out of whack, and I believe the below is the pivotal point at which we started down a diverging semantics path ... and it is entirely my fault:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message:

While I am in _complete_ agreement with the latter half of the above, unfortunately my response quoted the entire, while my intent was to take some exception to ONLY the following:

I can see where injudiciously, in haste to reply, my including the latter half caused the mistaken notion that I somehow assumed jointing was a necessary requirement for SxSxE lumber, which is far from the truth, and something I thought I had made quite plain in a definition of surfaced lumber in a prior post.
I apologize for the sloppiness.
However, I continue to disagree with the blanket assertion that the following statement, which started the whole shooting match, is wrong:

On this we shall have to continue to disagree.
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I'm certainly confused by your repeated insistence that it's not necessary to specify jointing when ordering S2S lumber. This does not make *any* sense, because: a) the standard for S2S does not specify jointing, therefore S2S lumber can be assumed to not have been jointed; b) boards which have not been jointed, and yet have at least one face that is perfectly straight and flat, with an edge that is also perfectly straight and perpendicular to that face, are so rare as to be for all practical purposes nonexistent; c) S2S lumber therefore cannot be assumed to be straight and fa; d) therefore it should be jointed before use; and finally e) if the purchaser does not have the means to joint it himself, he'd better order it that way or he won't get it that way.

Thank you.

I never stated, or thought, that you assumed that jointing was a necessary requirement for the production of SxSxE lumber.

Indeed we do disagree on that point. I will continue to maintain that for the OP, or anyone else who does not own a jointer, to stop ordering jointed lumber and instead deliberately purchase lumber that still needs to processed with a tool he does not own, is not a reasonable thing to do. Certainly there are other ways of preparing straight flat stock without using a jointer (jointer planes and planer sleds being the most obvious), but about the only way that's more convenient than using your own jointer is paying someone else to joint it for you -- which is essentially what the OP was doing by ordering his lumber jointed.
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On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:04:17 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Correct. To order jointing you specify J1S or J2S.

The same can be said for timber that has been jointed.

Neither can jointed timber be assumed to be straight an fa.
Actually, I'm not so sure about fa.

It should be jointed if it needs jointing.

Or he'd better get good at selecting timber.
Regards,
Tom Watson
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"Tom Watson" wrote in message

Precisely.
A board "jointed" yesterday may not be considered, for all practical purposes, "jointed" today ... a decidedly "non-rare", and very common, circumstance.
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Guess the hyperbole went over your head, Tom. Of course jointed lumber isn't perfectly straight and flat either, but it's considerably closer to perfect than lumber that hasn't been jointed.

Apparently you have nothing better to do than to pick at my typos.

Which is exactly equivalent to "it should be jointed if it hasn't been jointed."

If you think that the S2S lumber you're selecting is straight and flat, then either your standards or your eyesight could stand some improvement.
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On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:23:51 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Yep. I guess you're just too smart for me, Douggie.

Well, you being so smart and all, I thought you might have come up with some new criteria that I, in my ignorance, was unaware of.

Nope, it ain't.

Might be straight and flat enough, if I select them carefully.
Depends on what they're going to be used for.
A smart fella like you should be able to figure out what that means.
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Tom Watson
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Well, sure, if you're just putting up shelves in the garage. That's not exactly woodworking, though, more like home repair.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message...

Open up his signature line and take a look ... then show us yours.
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