joint both edges before glue-up?

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I'm putting together a oak table top. Typically one would dimension a piece of wood by jointing one edge, then ripping the other edge, parallel, on the TS. My concern is that I don't get the same quality surface by ripping then I do by jointing. This will, in essence, give me one less-than perfect edge for each joint when I go to glue up the top. Should I add one last step by running the just-ripped edge through the jointer, giving me two jointed edges? I'm planning to do this, it seems like the best option, I'm just concerned that by jointing both edges I might not get the perfect parallel edges that I would with the first plan. I'm I making myself clear? Thanks for any assistance.
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Very clear. If your jointer takes off more on one end of each board, feed the boards through starting at alternate ends. Just keep good track of your layout and which edge goes where. I wonder if this might be a good application for a planer. Joint all the boards, bundle them together with the jointed edge down and bun the through the planer. Just and idea. Mike in Arkansas
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JMWEBER987 wrote:

Mike, that will work, only if his boards are narrow enough to go through the planer. On my DeWalt 733 that means less than 6". At that he had best use some good hand screws to keep all boards together and aligned.
Deb
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On 17 Oct 2004 16:04:02 -0700, Doug wrote:

Ok, here is how I do it. First, my glue-up is intentionally oversized. I will cut the final size and make sure it is square once I am finished. I joint the one edge and rip to width just as you describe. Yes, there is one edge that is rougher. At some point I run everything through the thickness planer to make sure they are the same thickness. Now, I take each mating edge and run them through the jointer at the same time. That way, any minor diversion from 90 degrees on my jointer will not be a problem. Whatever the real angle, the mating surfaces will have complementary angles. Therefore, the boards will lay flat. I do not concern myself with the edges ending up exactly parallel at this point. Why? Because, as I mentioned, I will do my final sizing and squaring after the glue-up is complete.
Brian
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(Doug) wrote:

If you're getting a better quality surface from the jointer, then you need to check the alignment of your table saw, clean your blade, refine your technique, get a better blade, get a better fence, get a better saw, or some combination of the above.

You mean, giving you two less-than-perfect edges. :-)

A good rip blade on a properly aligned table saw leaves a better edge for gluing than a jointer does.
It's right to be concerned about the jointer leaving non-parallel edges, but if (a) the jointer is properly set up, (b) the edges are parallel coming off the table saw, and (c) you take a light cut on the jointer, then you don't really need to worry. If it's off, it won't be by more than a few hairs.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
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Doug, You must be referring to a HF jointer or one that is set-up poorly, dull or not being operated properly.
My Unisaw is setup perfectly, with clean and sharp blades and yet the cut is never as clean and perfect as a pass through my jointer.
The OP wants to insure perfectly parallel pieces for a glue-up. My procedure has been the same for many years.
Joint two sides, insuring a perfect 90, use the jointed side against the TS fence and down on the table, rip a touch oversize, joint the ripped edge flat, glue, clamp, run through planer (or neander flat), cut to final width and length.
Dave
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Dave responds:

Then you're doing something wrong, possibly starting with blade selection. A 30 tooth (10" diameter) rip blade in top condition, properly set up, on any of the last three saws I've owned gives an edge almost indistinguishable from the jointed edge. Most of the time, the jointer used was a DJ20 that was correctly set, with sharp blades. Both edges were excellent.
Charlie Self "There are two ways of exerting one's strength: one is pushing down, the other is pulling up." Booker T. Washington
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"Charlie Self" wrote,

Get some glasses.
Dave
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Charlie speaks the truth.. I have both machines mentioned and my 40 year table saw will produce an edge as good as my one year old DJ20.
This is with a decent, sharp blade.
TeamCasa wrote:

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On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:49:19 GMT, Pat Barber

My 1 year old General 650 will do the same with a WWII.
I also have a DJ-20, so I actually do the comparison myself. <G>
Barry
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Dave snarls:

So brilliant. Wonderful response. Helpful, full of facts.
Full of something.
Charlie Self "There are two ways of exerting one's strength: one is pushing down, the other is pulling up." Booker T. Washington
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Charlie Self wrote:

baby-butt smooth edges with a Forrest WWII blade. i do one edge first on the jointer then the opposite edge on the tablesaw. works for me!
can i call you four-eyes now?
Philski
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philski asks:

Actually, I've worn glasses most of my life. No longer need them for distance, since cataract surgery a couple years ago, but I do need them for reading and close up.
So, four-eyes is still right. :)
Charlie Self "There are two ways of exerting one's strength: one is pushing down, the other is pulling up." Booker T. Washington
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Charlie Self wrote:

contacts for the last 30 years or so but when they are out, it is bi-focals for me. i usually wear glasses vs contacts in the shop because wood dust under a lens is just hell. i too have been called 4-eyes many times (mostly by my departed dad). but hey, just remember ( i got this line last night watching Carlin intro MNF) "If your're not the lead dog, the view is always the same!"
Philski
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Got glasses. Use loops on occasion. No magic in the jointer. Smooth is smooth, regardless of which tool produces the surface.
bob g.
TeamCasa wrote:

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Not in my shop.

There's something amiss, then -- possibly your choice of saw blade. Or perhaps you and I have radically different understandings of the phrases "setup perfectly" and "clean and perfect".
No matter how good your jointer is, or how well it's set up, it simply isn't possible to obtain a dead flat surface (my understanding of "clean and perfect") with a jointer: at some scale, the surface left by a jointer is scalloped. Better quality tools, careful setup, sharp knives, and careful technique all work to minimize the extent of the scalloping, but cannot eliminate it altogether.
If you're getting better edges with your jointer than you are with your table saw, then there's something wrong with your table saw.

OK so far, although I'd prefer to use more specific terminology, e.g. "Joint one face and one edge... use the jointed edge against the TS fence and the jointed face down on the table".

On a correctly aligned, well-made table saw using a decent fence and a decent blade, this is totally unnecessary, as the ripped edge is already flat.
If this doesn't happen on your saw, you need one or more of a better saw, a better blade, a better fence, better alignment tools, better alignment technique, or better ripping technique.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
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Doug, I assure you my equipment is setup correctly. My blades range from custom made ones, Systematic, Ridge Carbide to the WW11 from Forrest. They are all maintained well and very sharp.
I'll grant you that in most cases, when the wood cooperates, the cuts do come out of the TS fine enough for gluing. But, as many woodworkers and no-doubt you will also admit, when ripping some woods, they can sometimes become unruly when sliced. This is simply not preventable and we all know it. This will affect the quality of the cut.
The jointer will produce a better surface on a more consistent basis over a greater range of woods and conditions. Even Charlie will have to admit this.
Doug said:

Agreed.
Dave
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Dave notes:

Of course it will. And under a glass, say a 4X or 8X photo loupe, you can easily see that a jointed edge is cleaner than a sawn edge. But with the nekkid eye, it can be diffcult to tell the difference. And I tend to leave my loupes in places other than the shop. My point being, it is seldom necessary to joint that second edge to get a good, solid glue up. But, as with all generalities, there are weaknesses in the statement. Reaction wood is one weakness. There are others, and there are some species of wood where jointing may be more often needed.
And for many people, jointer technique and jointer set up are going to contribute to lesser edges on the second edge. They may take off a shade too much, rock the board, or any of innumerable other actions that reduce the cleanness, and parallel, of the edge.
So, IMHO, it's better to try for a near perfect first jointed edge, and then use a properly set up saw to produce a rip that is glue-line quality. Several companies, including DeWalt, put out 40 tooth (10") so-called 'finish' rip blades. These are apt to give an even smoother edge than the 30 tooth glue-line types. High speed (feed speed) 24 tooth rip blades are not in the same class, for the most part.
Charlie Self "There are two ways of exerting one's strength: one is pushing down, the other is pulling up." Booker T. Washington
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Ok, so you look at your fitup and decide whether a pass over the jointer is indicated. What's that old saying about hard an fast rules being the hobgoblin of something? Damn, getting old is the pits. CRS.
bob g.
TeamCasa wrote:

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Neither tool, saw or jointer is going to produce the kind of surface the Hubbell guys are looking for. With experience, every woodworker learns to recognize the surface that's good enough for the kind of work he's doing. I maintain, a good saw blade or a jointer can both produce this surface. I've used a number of blades on the saw that never gave me that surface. The one that came with the saw was a prime example. I don't own stock in Forrest. His is the first blade I bought that would give me the kind of surface I'd put up against the jointer so I've stopped looking. Buying saw blades isn't one of my primary hobbies but that could change. The scalloped surface produced by the jointer has a lot to do with the feed rate. Feed slowly and the scallops will be a lot smaller and finer. When they get fine enough, they are not significant in the scale we worry about in woodworking. The Hubbell guys??? they got their own problems.
bob g.
Doug Miller wrote:

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