Jimmy Carter website

Page 5 of 6  


Check Fine Woodworking Issue 174 for an interview type article and issue 167 Reader's Gallery for an eample of his work.
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wrote:

Dave,
Do you know Frank Church by chance? He's one of the folks from over in the fly fishing newsgroup who was a 97 and then 135 boomer. I was just one of those guys sucking up underneath on the drogue in an EA-6B
Allen
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... snip

That's quite an interesting statement. You believe Bush is evil incarnate but FDR was a great man. Just to remind you : 1) FDR ordered the internment of 10's of thousands of *American Citizens* of Japanese descent. Without trial. Without due process. Without reparations. Without protest from the media. 2) Under FDR's watch, German submariners were tortured *to death*. Just to see if they had any interesting information. 3) Under FDR's watch, German infiltrators were *shot* when captured on American soil. Not imprisoned, not questioned, not held without communication or access to lawyers, but shot after appearing before a *military* court. In that case, FDR's government, and the Supreme court (that he had previously packed) argued that the military had such power. Note that one of those German infiltrators claimed to be a US citizen. The case was Ex Parte Quirin, the German saboteurs case. In World War II, eight German naval officers, one of whom claimed to be a U.S. citizen, landed secretly in the United States and were arrested. After trial by a military tribunal, seven were executed. The Supreme Court held that because they were members of the enemy armed forces, the military had jurisdiction (as it did over members of our own armed forces) to try them. The Court said that military jurisdiction was permissible because the defendants were "admitted enemy invaders." 4) FDR oversaw wage and price controls 5) FDR oversaw rationing and restrictions on what Americans could buy. Now, this was in a time of war, but just imagine if Bush were to have tried the same thing. 6) A number of historians are beginning to postulate that the policies implemented by FDR during the depression actually served to deepen and prolong the depression rather than alleviate it. One example, the 90% income tax on those who were succeeding stifled any recovery as those who "prospered" were penalized to the point of not finding being able to grow new businesses. 7) FDR deliberately mislead the news media (and members of the news media deliberately and willingly did not report) information regarding his health and physical condition.
Had Bush done any or all of the above, this would have caused the press and the left to raise howls of indignation and cries for impeachment. Yet, to the left, FDR is a hero and a great man. Truly amazing.
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Thats very interesting. I never heard of this before. What is the source on this? Thanks!
Mark & Juanita wrote:

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Joseph Connors
The New Golden Rule:
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Probably a pretty good reason that you have never heard it before.

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Huh? And what is that reason, after more than 60 years have elapsed?
Like Mr. Connors, I'd like to see a cite.
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That pretty good reason, I'd suppose, is that there is no documentation. It is just one of those rumers that surface after a president is long gone and can't defend himself.

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There are just a few little differences between WWII and the Depression, and the current mideast war. Just for starters, we were attacked in 1941 by enemies with armies and fleets. The country actually mobilized and committed effort and resources to the war effort and won in just a few years. The terrism war which started for us on 9/11 has already gone on longer than our participation in WWII. And in fact, it had already been going on for years. As for the Depression, I guess you would have preferred to have Herbert Hoover continue as president? He was clueless and inept. FDR was elected in the depth of Hoover's mess and in fact did get it cleared up. Go to the FDR Memorial in DC.
Steve


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Mark & Juanita wrote:

Actually, no. They were executed (possibly by firing squad, I don't know) after FDR died. So it wasn;t completely on his watch, though I don't suppose the outcome would have been any different if he had lived longer.
They wre not shot *when captured* but rather, as you later made clear, after trial and after exhausting their appeals and they were represented by counsel at trial (I think) and on appeal (certainly).

If you will read the Constitution you will find that the Congress (not the Commander-in-Chief) is granted authority to create courts martials or tribunals for the purpose of trials such as those referred to above. HIstorically the Congress did so in the Articles of War, which delegated much of the details of those commissions to the Commander-in-Chief.
In ex parte Quirin the USSC held that the Commissions established by FDR, and the sentences were consistant with the intent of the Congress as expressed in the Articles of War. The Federal courts also heard at least one appeal from, (upholding the conviction) thewar crimes trial of Japanese General. It is clear that the courts have had jurisdiction to hear appeals from military trils even of foreign nationals even overseas.
The Articles of War were repealed in 1949 and replaced with the UCMJ. The Commander-in-Chief no longer has the same degree of latitude as previously. Military Commissions are now required to conform much more closely to the standards of the Federal Court system.
FDR did not 'pack' the USSC. When the USSC struck down some New Deal legislation one of the proposals was to expand the membership of the court so that FDR _could_ 'pack' the Court by appointing new justices without having to wait for the sitting Justices to retire. However, that did not happen.
I certainly agree that FDR's treatment of the nisei was aggregious.
--

FF


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I don't think Bush is evil. In my eyes Cheney is definitely evil - be it torturing prisoners, spying on Americans, falsified intelligence, outed CIA agents, war profiteering by contractors - those trails all lead back to Cheney. I'd call DeLay evil too - he's hell bent on selling the US to the highest corporate bidders and viciously destroying the careers of those who question him, yet he sings louder than anyone else does in his church on Sundays. Like I said earlier, Bush is the face man for the administration. I do think he's doing a lousy job though - nobody ever seems be held accountable for screwing up under his watch.
Interesting coments about FDR. I'm no apologist for him, but read his writings or listen to his speeches - I find him really spine-tinglingly inspiring. If he's responsible for terrible things under his watch, then I hope he's held accountable for them. The difference between him and GW for me is that we are doing terrible things *now*, and can do something about it rather than pretend it isn't happening.
Just a comment or two:

behavior, and this is the best way to avoid it. I'm still amazed that none of the contractors over in Iraq have been tried for war pofiteering. How many billions are "missing"?

thing. Our war in Afghanistan was a couple of weeks, and so was the one in Iraq. Ever since then it's been a police action, not a war by any classical sense. The so-called "War on Terror" is really more like a war on organized crime - gathering lots of intelligence, and making arrests.

sense of perspective. That amount only applied to the super rich. I don't think it would matter a whit to the US economy if Bill Gates had to pay 90% income tax. The idea that a progressive income tax is a bad thing depends on trickle-down economics, something that has never been observed to work in the real world. Take our recent tax cuts. The idea was that by cutting taxes we'd all have extra spending money, and the US economy would boom as that money sloshed around. Remember the projections of 250k new jobs a month? It never happened - wealthy people just pocketed the money, or invested it in China. The only thing that saved our economy was lowering interest rates to 0% and creating a housing boom. I remember reading last year that refinancing and construction accounted for 50% of all job growth in the last 5 years.

It's well-known that the press had gave presidents "gentleman's discretion" It's said that all but a couple (two?) of the presidents up to JFK had mistresses, the press knew, yet said nothing. It's too bad they did that because Americans have this bizarre moral expectation of our leaders that they never have and never will live up to. When will grow up and realize that we will never geat moral leadership from our politicians or entertainers? FDR was never photographed in crutches as a sign of respect and discretion that was a bit more positive for the nation's psyche.
Dave
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"Cheney is definitely evil - be it torturing prisoners, spying on Americans, falsified intelligence, outed CIA agents, war profiteering by contractors - those trails all lead back to Cheney."
More BS from a blathering idiot.
Walt Conner
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Walt, I would challenge you to expand your political horizons. Go down to your local library, and do a Lexis Nexis search on Americans torturing prisoners, no-bid contracts in Iraq, the forged yellowcake documents, interference with CIA intelligence gathering, the outing of Valerie Plame, the botched reconstruction of New Orleans, and the recent scandal about ordering the NSA to spy on Americans. Cheneys name will be prominently featured in *all* of those subjects.
I guess you could argue that Cheney is innocent, but that would be more than he does. Usually when asked about any of these issues they're "classified or no comment."
Dave

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David Stuve wrote:

You mean aggressively going after *non-uniformed combatants* for whom the Geneva accords do not apply. They can be shot on sight as spies if we like. There is both legal grounds and precedent for doing so. And the "torture" in this case involves making them uncomfortable and physically intimidating them, not, say, beheading them with a dull knife like their compatriots do. Foreign spies are not entitled to the same civil liberties that US citizens and legal residents enjoy. In fact, they're not even entitled to the consideration legally required for foreign military combatants. When the Brave Soldiers Of Allah (tm) are willing to wear uniforms and fight other soldiers, not kill innocent civilians, then they'll get treated accordingly when captured. Until then, they are entitled to no consideration whatsoever.

To misquote a famous person from history, "The Left is an Ass". the no-bid Halliburton contracts were let out under the *Clinton* administration primarily because there are so few companies who can/will do this work at the relatively low net margins to be had.

There will be due process to find out who did what as regards to the whole Plame matter. Stay tuned - it will have been much ado about nothing.

Go find a history book with small words and simple concepts. You will discover that the last two major cities to be destroyed by disaster (Chicago in 1871 and San Francisco in the early 1900s) were rebuilt with *private* money. It is not now, nor has it even been the charter of the Federal government to rebuild cities. Only in the Looney Left does this qualify as an indictement against the current administration.

Again, we need to help you with the concept here. The NSA was not given an unlimited hunting license. They were only given room to do this when the American in question was in contact with a *probable threat*. FWIW, I don't like this either - there should always be judicial oversight when wiretapping in any form occurs - but the way you people drool on about it, you'd think the NSA was watching you get aroused watching Al Franken on TV at night. Your secret is safe. The NSA doesn't care that much about you.

Grow up. Cheney is neither guilty nor innocent. He is a cog in a big machine. A big machine made bigger for 70 years by the Chimps on the Left and now getting even bigger because of the Chimps on the Right. Blaming Cheney misses the point and diverts the blame from the real culprit: The American People, who for years have begged for something-for-nothing, who want some illusion of security no matter how much freedom is compromised, and who think they can pluck the Golden Goose (the wealthy) with impunity. So long as we are a nation of moochers and whiners, it will make little difference whether the regnant politics are Right or Left...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk snipped-for-privacy@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP /
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writes:

Oh, come ON, Scott. You know it's ALL Clinton's fault.
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Missed the part about "Wearing their country's Uniform", huh?
Walt Conner
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Actually, no. I mean the McCain amendment specifically prohibiting torture. Cheney was actively lobbying to exempt the CIA from restrictions using the bizarre argument that we are A) strongly against torture, but B) want to be able to threaten to do it. That should make your BS detector go berzerk - what if your local sherrif or department store detective wanted a similar exemption, promising that he would of course never do it..... "We'd never torture a shoplifting suspect, but we need the threat of it to act as a deterrent."

If the no-bid contracts were let out under Clinton as you say, why was Cheney personally involved in handing them out after the Iraq invasion?

Cheney was obsessed with Joe Wilson, and he and "Scooter" followed his every move. I find this very paranoia unsettling behavoir, especially when combined with his fondness of torture...

The handling of New Orleans was disturbingly similar to how Cheney handled Iraq. Cheney came in to run things, and lots of out-of-state contractors got all of the work, local companies got nothing, and lots of money changed hands and people are still in desparate straits down there.

Really? They haven't released any information about who they spied on. I've seen an AP story in the last couple of days hinting that the spying was much more widespread than Bush has admitted to. What's even more bizarre is that they can retroactively get warrants within 72 hours of doing wiretapping, but they just didn't bother. That indifference to the law can't be ignored by us if we wish to remain free people.

Interesting comment - I agree that the American people have much to wake up to, but that doesn't absolve Cheney of anything. He's simply guilty of being weak and giveng into the pressure of finding the quick and easy (and usually illegal) fix. I'm looking forward to him being replaced by someone who's actually willing to do the 'hard work' to try and do the right thing.
Dave
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" I mean the McCain amendment specifically prohibiting torture. Cheney was actively lobbying to exempt the CIA "
The big problem here is what is defined as torture which includes "anything that makes one uncomfortable". Putting them in confinement would probably make them uncomfortable.
"Cheney was obsessed with Joe Wilson, and he and "Scooter" followed his every move. "
Wow! You actually followed them around and know all this for a fact! Then you knew all about this Valerie Plame business then? And didn't leak her name? MORE BS.
Walt Conner
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RE: Subject
Good grief, consider the source and move on.
As I learned as a very young man, if you are going to mess with chicken shit, you are bound to get some on you.
Lew
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David Stuve wrote:

If we could agree on the exact behavior that consistutes "torture", I'd be all for it. The problem is that the current language precludes even making people feel bad. By that definition, making them listen to Barbara Streisand recordings qualifies.

I have no idea and I'd like to know: a) If this is true, and b) Why it is so, if it is so.
Oh, and as to the "forged yellowcake..." tell that to the soldiers who just carted out tons of uranium from Iraq over the past year. That particular document may well have been bogus, but the material was certainly in country somehow ...

This is supported by what? A New York Times editorial? Al Franken drooling all over himself? National Whiner Public Radio commentary? I'm not saying you're wrong, only that I've seen no credible proof of such accusations.

It is NOT the federal government's job (no Constitutional authority) to:
1) Be first responder in a natural disaster 2) Override the instructions of the local major/governor 3) Rebuild cities at the taxpayers expense.
First you bitched that the Cheney "botched" the reconstruction of NO. Now you don't like the *way* he handed out money. Don't you get it? The problem is his (and the Feds) being involved *at all*

No, but they've told us that the targets were people making international phone calls to known/suspected terror operatives. It's a reasonable deduction.

I agree with that completely. Too bad we didn't enforce that (thereby setting precedent) with Johnson and Clinton (to name just two) first.

Cheney's not the problem. You can replace him in a minute and nothing changes. So long as the Sheeple act as they do, government is:
1) Going to have way too much power 2) Be so large as to be incompetent most of the time 3) Be slow to fix real problems 4) Be bogged down in stupid minutae not in its actual charter
The way to fix this is to slim the Federal government back to its Constitutionally mandated charter: Run the courts, defend the borders, regulate *inter* state commerce (only), and, of course, run the Post Office.
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Note crossposting and followups.
For now I am willing to attriibute your misleading insinuations to ignorance, rather than to malice.
Tim Daneliuk wrote:

That certainly pegs my bullshit detector. Please refer us to where we can find that 'current languge'.

Somehow? Did you only develop an interest in the subject earlier today?
With French assistance, Iraq had an active nuclear power reactor program up until about 1980 when Israeli saboteurs destroyed the unfueled reactor in an attack coordinated with an aerial bombardment.
As part of that program Iraq had imported several tonnes of 2.7% enriched Uranium from Italy, (basic light water reactor fuel) and at least 330 (or was it 530-- when you check up on this. let me know, OK?) tonnes of yellowcake form Portugal and elsewhere.

during the middle 1990s or therabout Iraq applied for and received permisson to use some portion (30 tonnes perhaps?) of the yellowcake. I do not recall what Iraq did with it, perhaps it was sold.
The 2003 inspections showed that those materials, indeed all of the nuclear materials in Iraq, were accounted for and still stored under IAEA seal.
After the fall of Baghdad the Iraqi guards abandoned Tuwaitha and the center, by far the largest nuclear site in Iraq, was left unguarded by the US which declined to even visit the site for several weeks while attending to more important matters such as securing the oil ministry building. That selection of priorities should have been enough to put to rest any lingering suspicians that the Bush Administration thought Iraq might have had WMD materials.
When the US did visit the site it had been looted. The barrels in which the yellowcake had been stored had been stolen and the yellowcake dumped out on the ground. The US called in the IAEA to clean up the mess. The IAEA did so and reinventoried the materials. All of the reactor fuels, all of the other materials, and all but an insignificant amount of Yellowcake was accounted for in the cleanup.
A year later, the US removed the (highly valuable) reactor fuel. Shortly afterwards Carl Limbaugher (and others) ran a false story claiming that those materials (which as we know had been monitored by the IAEA for the previous quarter century) had recently been discovered in Iraq.
I am not willing to extend the same charity of thought to Mr Limbaugher as I am to you. Not only is it very hard to believe that he was unaware of the well-publicized history of those materials, but also, though he has been informed of the truth of the matter and referred to the supporting IAEA documents, he has not, to my knowledge issued a retraction and in all probablilty the false story remains online.
There were a lot of good reasons to depose Saddam Hussein. But no good reason to fabricate outright lies after the fact.
Aside from that, are you sure that yellowcake has been removed from Iraq by the US. That would be quite a substantial endeavor indeed.

If they peed on your head and told you it was raining would you believe them?

Agreed.
But for crying out loud please read up on the Iraqi nuclear program befor commenting on it. For almost thirty years now Iraq has been sitting on a stockpile of yellowcake sufficient for (depending on efficiency of separation and designed yield) somewhere around 150 atomic bombs.
That was never secret.
--

FF


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