JessEm Mortise mill

[-MIKE-]

There ya go... I already replied to your previous post, before reading this one. Dare I say, "great minds?" :-)

[Dave]

Ok, maybe you can make them that quick. But, there's other factors to consider too. Setup time, clean up time. However you want to lay it out, there's always other things to consider too.

Your carpentry pays for your living and your time is often not just leisure time. Making loose tenons compared to buying them is not as simple a comparison as it sounds.

[Swingman]

If you had really read the post, you would have noticed that "setup time" was included.

I don't do "carpentry"; the context of all my replies thus far have clearly contained the operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and "custom sized loose tenons"; and in ALL cases I was clearly and DIRECTLY addressing ONLY the time issue involved.

[John Grossbohlin]

I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes even more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on the very low end shop time is worth at least $50/hour and more realistically probably more like $100+/hour in many markets (to cover labor, profit, and the fixed and variable costs of having the shop and equipment [taxes, heat/cooling, electric, interest, maintenance, insurance, holding costs of inventory, depreciation, etc., etc.]). I have one associate whose commercial shop costs him about $35K/year whether he makes anything or not... at 40 hours per week for 50 weeks per year he needs to charge $17.50/hour just to cover the fixed costs!

That said, excluding the cost of the wood, in round numbers, that puts the cost of your 80 tenons between $.31 (($50/2)/80) and $.63 each (($100/2)/80) plus the cost of the wood. As a rough cost comparison, the Rockler site lists 600-Packs of Festool Domino Beech Tenons, 8x22x50mm at $82 with $12 shipping. That works out to $.16 each. Even if you used two per joint and charge $50/hour they are cheaper to buy than make when you take the cost of the wood into account. Value engineering would ask if it makes sense to use a "custom" size when functionally a "standard" size would do the job for lower cost. In a commercial environment maintaining some inventory of fasteners and adhesives is requisite when you take the opportunity costs of "running to the store" or "making upon need" into account so buying 600 for inventory would not be unreasonable. In a hobby shop environment, the discretionary time available to many, if not most of us would be more pleasantly spent on the primary project not on creating "standard" fasteners... even at about $.28 each for quantities of 100 delivered.

Not saying it cannot be done and not telling you how to spend your time (money)... If you can charge full shop rate and cover the material cost for making tenons it doesn't matter much. If you are discounting that time in any way (from under pricing, or charging what it would cost to buy them rather than make them, or forgetting to charge period) then you are taking money out of your pocket... I'm simply looking at the situation through a different lens here. I'm also not saying I haven't spent time making things that could be bought cheaper when all the opportunity costs are taken into account. ;~)

John

[Dave]

So, what was it for then? Maybe an exercise in what if?

In the real world, you make your living in the building trade. Time is money. However you want to slice it using a multi-router or whatever, making your own tenons compared to buying them is NOT an equal trade off.

[woodchucker]

I totally agree for professionals, but not for the hobbiest. Most of us spend a lot of time not doing projects, but doing small work. Consider this a small work task that can be done just as efficiently and for no real cost other than the cost of wood, which I think many of us have strips of wood that would make the teonons cheap to make and use up some of the off cuts we have.

[-MIKE-]

I would venture a guess that both time and material for this were already "paid for."

The wood was probably leftover cut-offs from ripping rough lumber to size. The time... all 30 minutes of it :-)... was probably "leftover" time from waiting for something to cure/dry or that magic period between work and a meal in which there's not enough time to start another step/procedure. We've certainly all had 30 minutes in "wife-time" that were spent looking for something to do while she takes "5 minutes" to put her face on before going out to dinner. :-)

[Gramp's shop]

Here's the bottom line for me on build vs buy: I'm a hobbyist and if I use 100 tenons in a year I will be surprised. Having said that, once I get my hands on what Jessem sends, I'm bound to try making my own.

Larry

[Doug Miller]

woodchucker wrote in news:atGdnY_bhqSzEJHMnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

Oh, easily. Initial setup is the big time consumer there. Once you've got the right thickness on the planer, and the correct height on the router, producing tenon stock at the rate of nearly a foot a minute is no problem at all.

[Leon]

tenons in a year I will be surprised. Having said that, once I get my hands on what Jessem sends, I'm bound to try making my own.

FWIW, hobbyist or not, being able to cut mortises and use tenons more quickly affords you the advantage of building "better more quickly". If you are anything like me you will find that if the tool is worth while and not a PIA to use you will use it more in place of other other tools. You will find more reasons to use the this type joinery. Building furniture with mortise and tenon joinery is a by far better than using pocket hole screws and or biscuits.

Basically if you are not satisfied by the Jesem jig don't let that leave you with a bad taste for mortise and tenon joinery.

[Swingman]

So tell, where do I buy "customer sized" tenons?

[Swingman]

delivered.

[-MIKE-]

I optimistically think the opposite would happen. As with pocket holes, even an awkward, simple jig that requires extra steps and time in order to make lots of joints allows you to fall in love with the use of pocket holes. I've never upgraded by simple little jig, but I use a ton of those joints. I think whenever i do upgrade to one with integrated tables, clamps, dust vac exhaust, etc., it'll be a wonderful luxury, but I'm not going to stop using pocket holes any time soon, simple because my little Kreg can be awkward.

I'm in the same position with my current doweling jig that is pretty awkward and slow to use. I've developed steps and processes to make things go more quickly, but I still see the advantage of dowels and can easily see how loose tenon joinery (especially the Domino) will be a great improvement. I look forward to owning and using a Domino, but I'm still going to make lots of joints using dowels (round loose tenons).

[Swingman]

You're right about project cutoffs being used when possible.

What is being discounted in this little 'Tete a Tete' is the fact that correctly sizing mortise and tenon joints is dependent upon very specific parameters, both regarding material dimensions, and the job of the particular joint.

These traditional parameters are based on practices that have "stood the test of time", and are ignored at your own peril.

While the original Domino is quite adequate for most tasks, the above is the main reason why I did not rush to replace my Multi-Router with the original Domino.

To argue in favor of purchasing "standard" size loose tenons, versus taking the negligible time to make "custom sized", and without regard to time tested methods of properly sizing the joinery ... and to use the rationale that "time is money" for that argument, is simply an indication of a lack of experience in the operation.

[Mike M]

If you can cut the tenons in 30 minutes then in most cases it would be cheaper and more time effecient. You can't get in your vehicle and go anywere and back to buy supplies in 30 minutes. In addition you don't have to deal with the fools on the road or in the stores.

Mike M

[Dave]

Mea Culpa. Obviously, I missed that fact.

[John Grossbohlin]

I often wonder how threads on the rec spin out of control... There was nothing in my posts that should have gotten you all hot and bothered. The first one about "time" had an exclamation point no less! Thus there was no need for personal attacks about experience, skill, or anything else. That said, my experience and skills are adequate to have gleaned me a box full of woodworking awards from multiple shows and have kept me on the lecture/instructor schedule for the past decade or so. I've lost actual count of both... My experience as a management professor and project manager never let me stray far from cost/benefit analysis.

Being treasurer for the Northeastern Woodworkers Association's Mid-Hudson Chapter for about 9-10 years has afforded me the opportunity to see a lot of work, a lot of shops, and meet a lot of professional woodworkers (all kinds from local to the internationally famous), writers and editors. TV woodworkers too... Abram, Marks, Underhill--I originally met him while I was working at Colonial Williamsburg, VA when he was the master housewright. As such, I've got a pretty good idea how things work and fully appreciate that there are often myriad ways in which a task could be completed. Thus I was making an informed observation about time.

All that said, I generally use mortise and tenon and/or hand cut dovetails in my solid wood work. For the one off furniture and cabinet work I do there hasn't been a time where mortise and tenons were a problem. My solid wood casework and drawers are typically done with hand cut dovetails with some frame and panel pieces thrown in too. Splines, loose tenons, biscuits, nails/screws and glue show up in some works depending on the fineness of the work and the intended use.

I am reminded of a dinner discussion the Saturday evening of Woodworkers Showcase 2008 with Doug Stowe, Peter Korn, Wayne Barton and others. Chris Schwarz had made other plans for that evening that included drinking beer... ;~) During the discussion a comment was made by Peter that amateurs will continue to do the best work as professionals do not have time to do so and make a living. That theme permeates most of the discussions I have had with professional woodworkers... they need to get the job done as quickly, efficiently and workmanlike as possible in order to make a decent living. There are only a few professionals whom I know who work in the museum/gallery markets who command prices high enough to strive for perfection in their work--I wouldn't call any of them rich. The "production shops" (that do jobs like built ins and interior trim for hotels, banks, churches, hospitals, etc.) seem to be more acutely aware of the time costs than the others as 5-10 minutes per unit adds up to hours and even weeks of shop time on big jobs. This time cost is less visible in one off work but still impacts the income surplus at the end of the year.

John

[Dave]

I think you do have to agree though, that between the Domino 500 and the new XL700, a large variety of tenon sizes are covered. I'd suggest to you that you could take double the time to make your specialized tenons and have even a better fit.

But, even you have a cut off time where you determine that it's not worth further time and effort. The phrase "time is money" is not as useless a rationale as your statement above would suggest.

[Swingman]

Easy ... do as you did: introduce pure conjecture into a discussion based on hands on experience and then unilaterally decree it a waste of time and a "burning distraction".

Despite all the horn tooting/name dropping, a simple question, asked of you regarding a position that _you_ alone took upon _yourself_ to interject into a conversation, remains totally ignored and unanswered.

Maybe this one is easier for you:

Just how many loose tenons does a "management professor" have to cut before he takes it upon himself to unilaterally decree it a waste of time and a "burning distraction"?

[Swingman]

Huh?

Dave, what are you talking about? For the life of me, I can't see how your above can be remotely considered germane to my quote without a large leap in imagination/supposition?