JessEm Mortise mill

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"Bill" wrote:

(Amazon.com product link shortened)
--------------------------------------------------------- Ye gads, talk about the high priced spread.
Somebody was running a sale on triple blade throw away razors.
Made in India, distributed by an outfit in Hollywood, CA.
They do more than just make movies in Hollywood.<G>
Pack of 5 razors for a $1.00.
I bought a pack, they worked great.
Needless to say, went back and bought another $20.00 worth.
First throw away I've been able to get more than one shave in a long time.
They also had a sale on EDGE shaving cream.
If it didn't work, wasn't out much.
Turned out to be another winner for me.
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

This is pretty close. It's 5 packs of 10 for $16. About 30-cents a piece. I understand they are made by Gillette to sell in India to their customers their who will not pay $3-4 per razor like some do here. Once in a while I am disappointed with a blade, but I like the deal compared to what I find available in retail these days.

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On 2/1/2013 4:10 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

I don't think that .18 cents a piece is that bad. What about cutting your own, just thickness on the bandsaw or tablesaw, rip to width, route roundover then cut to length... certainly you can make a few hundred in an hour. If you do it right.
--
Jeff

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-------------------------------------------------
"woodchucker" wrote:

--------------------------------------------------- You could make your own or get some one else to make them for you at your price.
Spent too many years negotiating deals to walk away from an opportunity. <G>
Lew
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Oh, easily. Initial setup is the big time consumer there. Once you've got the right thickness on the planer, and the correct height on the router, producing tenon stock at the rate of nearly a foot a minute is no problem at all.
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Why buy the tenons? If you have a thickness planer and a table-mounted router with a roundover bit, it's dirt-simple to make your own loose tenons from scrap wood.
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On 2/1/2013 6:10 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

You bet.
For all the tenons I use with my Multi-Router, I cut both thickness and width on the table saw, and length using a sled, or miter saw if they need to be mitered; then a roundover bit on the router table.
Cut'em just a RCH thicker than the mortise, then a quick touch on the Delta drum and belt sander for a precise fit.
--
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I think you guys may have too much time on your hands... ;~)
That said, I do things like that sometimes but most of the time I don't have the time... if I spent time on that I'd never get the real project done!
John
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>
?
The combined operation of cutting mortises on the Multi-Router, and making custom sized loose tenons, cuts shop time labor by at least 30%, more If compound angles are involved. Built way too many M&T tables and chairs, both traditional and floating, to not have thoroughly experienced, and documented, the benefit of those two alternate operations alone. And that's not counting the resultant time savings due to an increase in ease of fitting parts cut with a bit more inherent, and repeatable precision.
Although I don't own one, a Domino, while not as versatile, will save even more time, easily making up for the cost of the tenons, either making or buying.
--
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>
FWIW the most common sized tenon that I use is the 5mm one, especially for the more complicated joints that I make. They are about a penny more expensive than a biscuit when purchased by the case. The 6 mm tenon being approximately 1/3 the thickness of 3/4" stock is marginally more expensive. I can't imagine making 1,800, 5mm tenons to save $80. I have used about 2,800 of the 5mm tenons alone, that's 5,600 mortises. Can you imagine making that many mortises with the Jesem jig? The larger Domino unit however uses much larger and much longer tenons. Making your own would probably be worthwhile.
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"Swingman" wrote in message

It’s the making the tenons part, not the mortise part, that would burn time that pulling tenons out of a box wouldn't. Setting up machines to rip, joint, thickness, round over, cut to length, etc., to relatively tight consistent tolerances takes time... I suppose if you make 100s or 1,000s of them in what otherwise would be down time it would be OK, and cost effective, but in the middle of a job it strikes me as a time burning distraction.
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On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

>> 30% ...

The operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and "custom sized loose tenons" notwithstanding:
For 1 1/2 x 1/4 x 2" loose tenons:
I can set the fence and rip a 1x2x8 board into TWO boards of 1/4' thick stock in less than five minutes on the table saw, with setup ... and that's being pokey.
I can easily make 8 roundover passes with the resultant two pieces on the router table in less than ten minutes, with setup.
I can easily cut 2" tenons from that stock on the table saw/sled at a rate of 12 tenons/minute, or approximately five seconds each, with setup of the stop block on the sled.
And, indeed, on this last four barstool project, my detailed record of shop hours (which I strive to keep accurately to facilitate bidding on future jobs), indicates that I spent 30 minutes cutting the 80 loose tenons for four complete chairs.
That's 30 minutes for ALL the project tenons ... Now tell me how long would it take you to cut 80 tenons in the ends of 40 chair components?
Cutting custom loose tenons a "burning distraction", not quite ...
... but what it is, is the difference between actual experience with an operation, and just talking about it. ;)
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On 2/2/13 10:37 AM, Swingman wrote:

Wow, I guess my estimation was spot on. :-)
Now, figure out how long it would've taken to get on the computer, find the best price, place the order and get back out to the shop to work. Even if you could do it on the iPad in 15 minutes... now, you're waiting for UPS.
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Ok, maybe you can make them that quick. But, there's other factors to consider too. Setup time, clean up time. However you want to lay it out, there's always other things to consider too.
Your carpentry pays for your living and your time is often not just leisure time. Making loose tenons compared to buying them is not as simple a comparison as it sounds.
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On 2/2/2013 12:09 PM, Dave wrote:

If you had really read the post, you would have noticed that "setup time" was included.

I don't do "carpentry"; the context of all my replies thus far have clearly contained the operative words "Multi-Router", "combined", and "custom sized loose tenons"; and in ALL cases I was clearly and DIRECTLY addressing ONLY the time issue involved.
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So, what was it for then? Maybe an exercise in what if?
In the real world, you make your living in the building trade. Time is money. However you want to slice it using a multi-router or whatever, making your own tenons compared to buying them is NOT an equal trade off.
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So tell, where do I buy "customer sized" tenons?
--
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Mea Culpa. Obviously, I missed that fact.
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"Swingman" wrote in message
On 2/2/2013 7:35 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

I think you miss my point... which in a commercial environment becomes even more critical. That being that time is money. I'd think that on the very low end shop time is worth at least $50/hour and more realistically probably more like $100+/hour in many markets (to cover labor, profit, and the fixed and variable costs of having the shop and equipment [taxes, heat/cooling, electric, interest, maintenance, insurance, holding costs of inventory, depreciation, etc., etc.]). I have one associate whose commercial shop costs him about $35K/year whether he makes anything or not... at 40 hours per week for 50 weeks per year he needs to charge $17.50/hour just to cover the fixed costs!
That said, excluding the cost of the wood, in round numbers, that puts the cost of your 80 tenons between $.31 (($50/2)/80) and $.63 each (($100/2)/80) plus the cost of the wood. As a rough cost comparison, the Rockler site lists 600-Packs of Festool Domino Beech Tenons, 8x22x50mm at $82 with $12 shipping. That works out to $.16 each. Even if you used two per joint and charge $50/hour they are cheaper to buy than make when you take the cost of the wood into account. Value engineering would ask if it makes sense to use a "custom" size when functionally a "standard" size would do the job for lower cost. In a commercial environment maintaining some inventory of fasteners and adhesives is requisite when you take the opportunity costs of "running to the store" or "making upon need" into account so buying 600 for inventory would not be unreasonable. In a hobby shop environment, the discretionary time available to many, if not most of us would be more pleasantly spent on the primary project not on creating "standard" fasteners... even at about $.28 each for quantities of 100 delivered.
Not saying it cannot be done and not telling you how to spend your time (money)... If you can charge full shop rate and cover the material cost for making tenons it doesn't matter much. If you are discounting that time in any way (from under pricing, or charging what it would cost to buy them rather than make them, or forgetting to charge period) then you are taking money out of your pocket... I'm simply looking at the situation through a different lens here. I'm also not saying I haven't spent time making things that could be bought cheaper when all the opportunity costs are taken into account. ;~)
John
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On 2/2/2013 2:14 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

I totally agree for professionals, but not for the hobbiest. Most of us spend a lot of time not doing projects, but doing small work. Consider this a small work task that can be done just as efficiently and for no real cost other than the cost of wood, which I think many of us have strips of wood that would make the teonons cheap to make and use up some of the off cuts we have.
--
Jeff

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