Is this an a-pawling idea?

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B A R R Y wrote: ...

For the most part that's so; but that relies again on a lot of factors the most important of which is still operator attention.
I'd only be so harsh because of the (apparent) claims of "never" are, imo, simply foolhardy if believed for the poster himself.
In 30 years or so, I can only recall a couple of real incidents personally and both of them were attributable to operator error -- but while we all may like to think we're good and only do safe things, on occasion everybody is going to make a mistake--one can only hope the results aren't disastrous when one does. So far, I've still all digits and other pieces-parts, but I've seen enough who don't to remind me.
(Working post-accident review teams at power plants is enough to remind one of what consequences can be also, even if not directly OT here.)
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"B A R R Y" wrote

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but that's not been my experience.
IME, one of the most kickback prone cuts, at least on a 3-5 hp saw, is when a lone operator is making those often awkward, initial cuts on large sheetgood panels, sans splitter. (DAMHIKT, and one of the reasons there is always a splitter on my TS :) )
Do it on an underpowered saw and you might be able to overpower the kickback, have it happen on a saw in the 3HP + range, no matter how well setup, and you may well be unpleasantly surprised. :(
Not to mention that to "properly" set up a table saw, then declare it safe from kickback as a result does not bespeak of much experience in the declarer.
Just my tuppence, however .. :)
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It's not a question of piling on. The claims clare made are not only foolish but dangerous if left unchallenged. They need to be vigorously repudiated.
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And how exactly does "correct setup" keep a piece of reaction wood from clamping down on the blade?

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On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:24:47 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:

Wrong! Change "will never" to "should never". I and I'm sure at least a few others here worked with wood under tension, usually wet, that will kick back without a kerf splitter sometimes even with a kerf splitter. I would agree that good dry stock doesn't kick back when rip-cut, cross-cut or angle-cut with a well tuned saw. I re-check my saw alignment because I normally do small precision angle cuts. I got injured when a rip-cut of wet cherry closed up after the kerf splitter and kicked-back. It did not close at the start of the cut, rather it closed up about a third of way after cutting through a knot that must have changed the grain direction. If you get hurt, believe me, you want to have all available safety devices and a safe work environment to challenge your insurance company.
Safety devices shouldn't give you a false sense of security but I see no reason to recommend to the public that they not use kerf splitters and safety guards. Do this with employees and you open the door to an OSHA/ CCOHS/worker's compensation lawsuit.
A few moments spent removing and re-installing the blade guard as needed as well as using kerf splitters, push sticks, feather boards and other safety devices is well worth the safety in the long run.
When you say "Dave Wooland is THE table saw expert and a real nice guy" are you implying that he's a hypocrite and is ripping people off by selling unneeded table saw safety devices on thesawshop.com website? I see zero clearance inserts, push blocks, feather boards, safety glasses and a table saw with kerf splitter and blade guard for sale on his site. I would hope that his site reflects his opinions on safety devices a little better than you. I also see that in his saw tune-up tips and other postings on the web nowhere does he advocate not using safety devices. On the contrary, he clearly states that tuning the table saw is for safety as well as precision.
Always use appropriate safety devices, tune and align your equipment before production use, learn and use safe cutting procedures and don't work with dangerous machinery while under the influence. Be extra careful when working around people that think safety is a waste of time and money.
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On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:24:47 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:

True!
I do use a shop made splitter in my zero clearance insert for ripping, though. Some wood can create a kerf that closes regardless of how well set up the saw is.
I never had a use for those silly pawls put on some factory splitters.
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clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:

To think that is simply to ignore the possibilities.
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ontario dot canada wrote:

Nonsense.
To make that claim have even a passing resemblance to the truth, it's necessary to add these few clauses at a minimum:
Set up your saw correctly ... *and* never cut anything freehand *and* never use both the miter gauge and the rip fence as guides *and* always use stock that has been properly jointed *and* never rip boards with any internal stresses ...
Starting to get the picture yet?
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Doug Miller wrote: ...

and the most important one of all:
_never_, _ever_, make a human error or slip up or lose attention or get distracted, or ...
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On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:24:47 -0400, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:

I'd be LOL if this wasn't such a serious matter. When Dave can tell us how to "set up" the wood perfectly then maybe a case can be made.
Frank
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Didn't you already ask that question? I seem to recall something like it, that was already answered. Lessee:
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Newsgroups: rec.woodworking

No, the kicking is done by the back part of the blade. Eliminate it by using a splitter, proper technique, and standing to the side just in case it happens anyway.
You use a push block/stick too, right? And never use the miter with wood against the fence.
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Yup. Looks like the same question. Didn't like the answer the first time??
-Don
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I the last two and a half months or so, you've posted questions/statements/whoknowswhat about different ways to make chips...
...dual fences posted on 2/2/2008 ...some sled arrangement for a dead RAS that you think oughta save the world ...some goofy circular saw extension handle gizmo...three times ...and now, some BS about kickback pawls ahead and behind the cut on a table saw.
Out of eight posts, one made sense...wondering about how uniform a rip cut should be. However, that one makes me wonder if you've ever even MADE a rip cut on a table saw, because I'm thinking that if you had, you likely would have been able to answer that one all by yourself.
In the rest of these posts, your ideas were, I believe correctly, shot down by people who know how to make sawdust and generally keep fingers attached to the hand. And you argue that the collective MUST be wrong. Never seems to occur to you that you might be wrong. Ever.
Now, I'm not going to say that I never have a weird idea...but if I ask about it and have as many people tell me that it's a dumb idea, I'll at least think to myself "Self, they may have a point....let us rethink our position on this."
I'm also not going to tell you that we, the collective, is/are always right...but if you never hear a dissenting opinion other than your own, either there is a vast conspiracy to get your ideas to sell and make millions without you getting your due, or you're wrong.
Now, which do YOU think the right answer to that one is?
So if you're a troll, go back under the bridge you crawled out from under.
If you're not a troll and truly want input and advice, feel free, but maybe, just maybe try to not argue juts because someone says something that doesn't fit your conclusion.
Mike
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It really sucks when people don't agree with your train of thought! Then it is very convenient to have your own little world to live in, where everyone is happy, your ideas are always best, and nothing ever goes wrong! Greg
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You're coming into a forum that has a wide range of experience, but many of the answers you're getting are from the guys that have been around a long long time and either intuitively know when something is wrong, or have been down the road and learned a lesson.
What did I learn in this thread?
I think the only safe answer from anyone here is to suggest you get a conventional saw and not use your setup.
And Set up your table saw CORRECTLY and it will never kick back, even with no splitter, no pawls, and NO SAFETY GUARDS.
And
No, the kicking is done by the back part of the blade. Eliminate it by using a splitter, proper technique, and standing to the side just in case it happens anyway.
And
I never had a use for those silly pawls put on some factory splitters.
One can really learn a lot from the above.
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wrote:

Had you read the lines ABOVE my comment about the pawls, maybe you would have learned something. Visit a pro shop and notice that those pawls won't be present . Look at a riving knife equipped saw. No pawls! Heck, I've even put photos and pictures on the web to help less experienced folks learn
You're looking less like someone trying to learn, and more like a troll every day.
Perhaps you can start a woodworking club down there at "La Boca Vista, Phase II (since Phase 1 is sold out!)" , and find your answers there.
Have a nice day!
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Isn't it "DEL" Boca Vista?
B.
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Stand clear of the line of fire like everyone else does.
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