With your last sentence, you must be assumming that there is an inherent danger without the latches, and that somebody is more likely to get killed with them removed. Certainly, my opinion would not be the same. Maybe I don't share your confidence that the bureaucrat who wrote the regulation was competent to do so.
It doesn't really work that way. I'm thinking you've not worked in an OSHA-controlled environment... :)
OSHA has the force of law and inspectors to enforce it and power of very substantial fines with which to be punitive about it. Unfortunately, it is one of those bureaucratic nightmares which has become the 900-lb gorilla and often the good intentions are lost in detailed "letter-of-law" enforcement. Not all inspectors are as qualified as would be desirable nor are all as interested in working to find a safe technique for a given operation as in finding violations.
Consequently, manufacturers of equipment have to produce it to OSHA standards and if, for example in this case, the reg says "there shall be a hook", then they're going to make the item with a hook because if they don't they can't sell it as approved. And, unfortunately, Leuf is right in that it isn't something one can simply tell OSHA "we'd rather do it this way because..." and get an approval or waiver or any such relief in a timely fashion.
The above said, however, last sentence doesn't in general reflect the attitude of many companies on workplace safety, however. There are some that tend to "not get it", but for the most part it is a serious effort.
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Further, lots of people have reported false trips of the
Care to elaborate on where/who all these false trips are happening. Cartridge $70 (in some cases free from SS) $90 for WWII
No, I just don't think that people should rely on nanny safety equipment, they should learn how to be safe and use the safety equipment as a backup. Otherwise, it's all about evolution in action, the stupid get culled from the herd. If people have to be told not to lay on a running table saw because something bad might happen... something tells me these people deserve to be laying on running table saw blades, they're just too stupid to survive on their own.
Unfortunately, we live in a very sue-happy society where not only do you have to tell people to be safe, you have to do it in such a way that a brain-dead chihuahua could understand it.
I've never managed to cut anything off my body I didn't intend to, neither did my father in a lifetime of woodworking, neither did my uncle in a lifetime of woodworking. Why? Because we all learned that whirling metal blades of death meeting flesh is a bad thing. We learned how to work safely, we learned that if you do something that feels dangerous, chances are that doing it at all is wrong. You know something? That's what kept us all safe. Not having nanny-equipment that doesn't let us be stupid, but learning not to be stupid in the first place. That's really where I object to all this anti-stupidity equipment that has come along. It doesn't teach people to be safer, it teaches them that they can be idiots, the equipment will keep them from having any consequences to their stupidity.
Honestly, I think people need to suffer the consequences of their idiocy, otherwise how do you learn not to be an idiot?
What are you, 14, 15 maybe?
You are sooooooo naive. You talk about those people that need to suffer the consequences and yet you are headed right down that path and don't see it coming. You know the saying, you don't know enough to know that you don't know.
Just curious....as a major (at least here) sawstop supporter as well as table saw victim why don't you have one? On another note if any table saw accident is possible is it as well inevitable? Rod
Whether he actually owns one is mostly irrelevent in this case. As well, there can be other reasons why a proponent of Sawstop safety might not own one. Leon is arguing the benefits of the Sawstop in this case against Brian's "impossible for me to get hurt" responses. I fully support the safety features of the Sawstop myself, but don't own one. And since I know you're going why, I'll indulge you with the primary reason I don't own a Sawstop. I use a wheelchair and the Sawstop table surface is too high for me to use in as safe manner as I'd like.
However, that hasn't stopped me from seriously considering one. I've examined the Sawtop closely in person and inquired about the possibilility of cutting down the Sawstop cabinet to lower the table. But, the additional mechanical components needed for the safety features in the Sawstop make it impossible to lower the table. Other makes of cabinet tablesaws however, can be lowered without extensive mechanical modification and that *is* something that I'm actively pursuing.
Given enough time, yes it is inevitable. In the case of Brian Henderson possibly, possibly not, but his "impossible for me to get hurt" attitude makes him more vulnerable to accident. And the ironies of life have a way of biting one in the butt when they least expect it. Not that I'd want to see Brian or anyone else be hurt just to satisfy that irony, but his attitude certainly mandates a good scare on the tablesaw just to bring him down to reality.
No one has ever said it's impossible to get hurt, but the reason I haven't gotten hurt isn't because I've got the safety-equipment-from-hell, it's because I know how to work safely. Is it possible I might get seriously hurt someday? Sure, anything is possible. Am I going to be paranoid about it? Nope.
We see far too many people who rely on technology to keep them safe and just don't bother actually learning how to *BE* safe in the first place. That's the objection.
I've always recommended that beginning woodworkers learn to "COUNT THE TEETH OF THE BLADE" before doing anything anywhere near it. I taught quite a few women over 6 years on safe power tool use and not one of us so much as got a scratch. I think this is a dumb kinda rule- but it works. Donna Menke,
Rod & Betty Jo wrote: ...
You Presbyterian??? :)
Brian Henderson wrote: ...
I don't believe that's the case in any of the discussion here...
And, if you'll read Sawstop's literature, you'll note it specifically points out the technology does NOT prevent accidents, it merely limits the consequences of one...that can't be all bad.
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"Rod & Betty Jo" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com...
Good questions, and I'll bring up some things to consider concerning other comments in this thread so please do not consider that all of these comments are directed at you.
This is the way I think concerning this topic.
Unfortunately my accident, which still seems like it only happed a few months ago, happened about 14 years prior to the SawStop being invented. Why don't I have one now? I am not in the market for a new TS. While many will say that the SawStop is very expensive and may not be worth the additional expense, it is marginally more expensive if you plan on buying a new saw any way. It may only be $500 to $1500 more than a "comparable" saw in the same class that you may be looking at. Yes $500 to $1500 is a lot of money to some people including myself. I do however pay a similar amount "every year" for home owners insurance and the chances of being hurt on the TS are much greater than my house burning down or being blown away in a storm. Damages incurred on a TS could be equal in value to those of your house being blown away or burned down and could be more if the injuries would affect your livelihood. If you do not need to buy a new saw the expense is much greater than what you were going to spend. I absolutely do not propose that every one go out and buy one. I do suggest that the saw be strongly considered if you are going to buy a new TS. It's like considering the purchase of a car with or with out air bags. Until you have been injured you really have not concept of how venerable you are. Once injured you have had the experience to realize that you simply do not know every possible way that you can be injured. It could not happen to me and yet it did. Every one that knows me was in shock because I was soooo careful. Hummmm.
You asked, if a any table saw accident is possible is it as well inevitable?
Absolutely. So far, Table saw accidents are not on the decline. Will you eventually get hurt, "maybe" not. Between you and 4 other TS users, the chances are 5 times greater that one of you will get hurt. We are all human and we make mistakes. With out fail we all eventually unknowingly let our guard down. The more you use your saw the more likely it is that at some time you are going to get hurt.
You always practice proper TS safety because you respect the machine and know what harm it can do. Are you more comfortable using the saw today than the very first day you used it? Do you think that you will become more comfortable with it as time goes by or if you use it every day? Thinking way back when your parents let you have your first knife, did you respect it and know what harm it could do? Are you more comfortable using the knife today than the very first time you used it? Have you ever cut yourself with a knife even though you had the knowledge that it could harm you.
You come from a long line wood workers. Your grandfather, your father, you and your child were and or will become woodworkers. Your grandfather's, your father's and your child's experience with woodworking equipment will never have any extended power or extend good luck to protect you from making a mistake. Your grandfather probably taught your father how to use and respect a knife. I'll bet your father has cut himself with a knife. Did you ever think that you would not cut your self because your father taught you how to handle and use a knife?
The simple fact is, the more safety features a tool has, the less likely an accident will occur when the inevitable happens. The inevitable would be you letting your guard down or making a mistake. The TS is unforgiving. It does not care whether you practice proper safety or not. You CANNOT know all the steps to prevent any possible accident and practice them 100% of the time.
If you are in the market for a new TS. Should you discount the SawStop because of they way the inventor tried to bring the saw/technology to market? :~) Before answering that question lets all remember that we all practice proper TS safety. Right? Do we let our guard down at this moment? Would not considering a saw with more safety devices because of the feelings we have towards some one or something be practicing good TS safety.
Practicing good TS safety does exclude events that happen when wood is not being cut.
Did you ever say or know some one that said, that will never happen to me?
I do not know yore arrangement but rather than modify a saw to be lower, could you modify or build up the floor around the saw? If you have a wooden floor could you cut a hole in it and install a lower surface to set the saw into? Or perhaps build up the floor around equipment that is or is marginally too tall?
Just a thought.
Good advise however there is always an exception to every rule. LOL
I had probably counted the teeth on more than a few blades 10 years before having an accident and some times will nick my self just handling a freshly sharpened blade.
Brian I guess what makes your comments seem so naive and scream "inexperienced" is that you keep fabricating instances that have not occurred in these threads. No one in this thread that I recall has made the comment that they are going to rely on technology to keep them safe.
Like most people know, looking down the barrel of a loaded gun is not going to save your butt if you pull the trigger and the safety is not engaged and whether the safety is engaged or not it is a dangerous move. I think it goes with out saying that most mature people realize that nothing is fool proof and that placing a body part near a blade spinning at 100 mph is still going to instill a sense of fear regardless if the operator knows that the safety device will prevent injury 99.99% of the time.
The reason that you have not had an accident yet is because the safety techniques that you practice have not yet been compromised by the mistakes that you make. Yes you make mistakes. I know you do. You are not the only that does not. Given enough use and time a mistake will happen when you are not practicing a safety technique that you are so far unaware of. If your grand father or father taught you all the safety measures that they know, you have not learned all the safety practices. Your comments demonstrate that.
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I fully agree, Leon. As another sidebar of this thread has discussed, some of us here have served on safety review committees doing accident analyses and root-cause evaluations. It is truly to be amazed by at how many of these have as at least one cause either willful disregard for accepted procedure(s) or actual disabling of one or more safety devices thus allowing or precipitating the injury.
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Howard,
.....> Thoughts, comments, advice?
Just heard from a local HS shop teacher - he's getting two of them. He gets a kickback accident ever so often (more rarely, due to his teaching skills and the many eyes in the back of his head, I'm sure), but he simply can not afford a possibility of an amputation accident.
I agree!
Go for it!
MJ Wallace
SNIP
As another sidebar of this thread has discussed,
Oh man, did that make my hair stand on end - again. Haven't thought about it for a long time, but all of a sudden I was back in 1964 sitting down at a punch press for day after day of punching out zillions of 2 inch parts. Even though the press was old, it was fitted to prevent getting fingers in the dies. Except that some genius must have thought that using both hands to lower the press slowed them down too much, because this one was modified. The left-hand handle was wired down and the right-handle was wired to a home-brew foot pedal, so that you could feed with the left hand, retrieve parts with the right hand and operate the press with ONE FOOT. Even though it scared the shit out of me, I knew I had to keep my mouth shut and just watch out for myself, or quit the best paying summer job I could find. I was able to maintain concentration for a couple of days, but eventually the mind-numbing repetition took its toll and a couple of times I caught myself getting out of sequence and reaching to retrieve the part while my foot was starting to come down to lower the press. Never got hurt, and didn't hear about anyone else getting hurt, but the experience obviously made an impression.
And back on topic, if I replace my Jet contractor saw, the Saw Stop will be high on my list of possibles. Even though I know I am able to prevent most accidents, some day something may distract me at the wrong moment.
Regards, PDX David
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