In our fondest dreams ...

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On Dec 30, 1:51pm, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Mine was sarcasm ;-)
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I guess I missed that.
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wrote:

Scrap all of that.
How about a minimum IQ standard???
OK. What would be your standard? I vote for 150.
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At the risk of being immodest, I'm going to be sucking up all the coffee and eating the last of the donuts after everybody else has pushed the bar up as high as they might like.
But ... that's just me ... :-)
I also think it IS a silly way to choose who votes and who doesn't, and was hoping to indicate how unlikely it was that anybody (certainly here, but ... generally) was ever going to draw a line that stood ANY chance of leaving THEM outside of the polling place.
See you at the polls!
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I think if you chose 85 there probably would be more politicians than voters, assuming politicians were not included in the voter base.
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Scrap that: where would it leave the democrats?
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Nonny

ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
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In office, obviously, but I'm not sure that solves anything....
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Neil Brooks wrote:

Looks good on paper but has a _bad_ history in the US, where a black Caltech PhD couldn't pass the government's IQ test but an inbred white hick could in some states.
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They do usually point to Stanford-Binet as being *terrifyingly* culturally biased, so ... yeah ... I agree.
By the way ... that latter chap lives about three doors down from me ;-)
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Neil Brooks wrote:

That aside, it didn't matter what answers you gave on the test.

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It's not just the Stanford-Binet -- they *all* are. Not as badly now as they used to be, however.
As I suggested yesterday, read "The Mismeasure of Man" by Stephen Jay Gould. It will open your eyes.
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On Dec 31, 5:06am, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Ordered, and ... thanks.
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On 12/30/2009 2:15 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

'seems fair enough.
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mind.
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It always elevates the rhetoric to begin casting aspersions like that.

I didn't mean that the Right had a monopoly on it, but ... what do you recall about Database Technologies vis-a-vis the Bush/Gore election. There clearly WERE some paid-by-the-piece ACORN folk who ripped off the company, and -- in so doing -- harmed the process.
But I've seen no evidence it was condoned, sanctioned, sponsored, or directed by the organization. If you recall the Database Technologies story, then you'll know the same can't be said of that whole situation.

That doesn't address the issue of how.

I'd be interested in a citation for that. That doesn't comport with the info that I've seen.

Well, thank the Good Lord for what I clearly feel is the imminent opportunity for YOU to set me straight!!!

Meh. Easily countered bumper-sticker arguments. I'll pass on the bait, though.
As for the rest of your post ... it's tantamount to a "Bush-Cheney" or "McCain-Palin" sticker on a Suburban or Yukon: redundant and superfluous :-)
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On 12/30/2009 2:18 PM, Neil Brooks wrote:

Go review the MN election. Without the ACORN distortions, Franken loses.

I'd be interested in it too. The problem is that what rises to the necessary level of proof legally is different than what we can figure out ourselves as common sense. Watching the ACORN leaders twist and turn as they are assaulted by their right wing critics makes it clear that ACORN is hiding a lot. They are tap dancing like crazy not just on the "'Hogate 2009" but on their voter signup practices. When it smells like poo, it probably is.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as condescending. I was actually trying to be sort of friendly ...

Go ahead, counter them if they are trivial arguments. Explain to me why it's OK to enslave me for 5 months a year.

I liked neither. However, the current Messiah's performance is guarnteeing that I am going to do something I have not done in literally decades - vote a straight, blind R ticket for the next several elections. I'd even take Gingrich-Palin over what we have now. (And I almost NEVER vote for a Republican.)
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Then my apologies -- sincerely.

Don't point that question at me, Man! It's loaded :-)
[and very much akin to me asking whether or not you've stopped beating your wife yet.....]

I wonder how I made it through eight years of GWB without ever calling him some horrid media-propagated nickname, despite having been repulsed by virtually everything he ever did as the Leader of the Free world.
And why those who -- generally -- claim to love this country "more than all others," and have respect for its institutions feel so compelled to act like kids when it comes to politicians they dislike?
Chosen One? Messiah? Socialism? Communism? Black president shining Palin's shoes??
Nobody who ever invokes terms like that ... should ever wonder why others pay NO attention to politics.
It's because that sort of behavior -- regardless of which side is using it -- repulses sensible folk.
Now ... to help re-frame your question ....
Why should you pay taxes?
Because the collective good is served -- in some cases, better, and in some cases, worse -- by the collective dollars spent for the 'general welfare --' be it roads, safe cars, safe drinking water, an education system that -- while in need of serious pimping -- is still ranked highly in the world -- police protection, fire protection, libraries, (inadequate) regulation that helps to extinguish Social Darwinism where the strong may pray on the weak, a mighty military, satellite navigation, etc., etc., etc., etc.
[And ... health care. A sick uneducated work force (worse than it is now, I mean) is a one way ticket down on the latter of economic world hegemony for the good old You Ess Of Ayyyy. We WILL be serving cocktails, in flight, however.]
These things cost money.
In aggregate, these things also play a BIG role in the average person's perceptions about why this is The Greatest Place In The World In Which To Live (I like it, but ... would never go that far).
Take away the economic support for those things, and Social Darwinism really takes hold. A quick peek: the item that taxes pay for, and what happens when the wealthy are free from subsidizing it:
-Roads? Hell, I'll buy a Hummer
-Schools? I'll send my kids to private
-Water? I buy bottled
-Pesticides? I buy organic. Let THEM eat DDT
-Banking regulation? Hell, _I_ have an MBA and a high-priced lawyer. F the rest of them
-Police/fire/public safety? I'm RICH and am covered by Sovereign Deed
and on and on and on.
Sounds okay?
Well ... if you're on this ng ... you're likely in the group that's going to be screwed. Enjoy :-) I'll be your cabin-mate, Neil.
I'm actually a hobbyist woodworker, but ... because of a nagging sinus infection ... have had to take a slight break from my two shaker-style mahogany night stands.
I spend little time on this forum because -- like the craft, generally, I'm guessing -- the demographic is painfully narrow.
Again: confirmation bias.
A bunch of people preening around each other, telling each other what they already know, and are desperate to hear again (and again and again).
Challenging our closely-held assumptions ... is a good thing :-)
So is wearing an N95 mask when cutting M&Ts in mahog or dado'ing my baltic birch plywood ;-)
Cough, cough.... sniff, sniff....
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On 12/30/2009 4:08 PM, Neil Brooks wrote:

I have no personal animus towards the current Prez. I have a loathing for almost every policy decision AND contempt for those who worship him as some salvific figure. Hence the term "Messiah".

You lost me already at "collective good". More evil has been done in the name of the "collective" than any other word in human history. It has been used to justify all manner of mischief, oppression, brutality, and horror. So, frankly, I am uninterested in the "collective good."
I'm interested in preserving freedom for as many people and in as large amount as possible. So, by that definition, the only legitimate use of taxation is to fund the defense of liberty from threats both within- and without. Everything else is some form of imbalance of liberty where some pay and some benefit, but the net amount of freedom does not increase (and in fact is decreased from some people).
The answer is: I should happily pay taxes to defend my freedom. (And I do.) I should resist - by all legal and ethical means - to see tax money used for any other purpose because that is stealing.
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Your language says otherwise.

Your language says otherwise. If you don't like his supporters, then demonize them, but -- for a lark -- try doing it like an adult might.
Meanwhile, your schoolyard name-calling (ie, "Messiah") is naught but silly and puerile.

That's America. The words "General welfare" mean anything to you??

Then lower yourself to THEIR level by twisting the benevolent meaning of that phrase ... and/or outlaw religion on the same premise.
Nah. Your argument went "thud" when it fell down.

Hm. That certainly just sounds like your own vision of the collective good.
And nobody could EVER get hurt by that worldview, huh? And no illegitimate wars could EVER be started if that's the deal, right?
Your former argument now has company on the floor.

Proof by assertion, huh?
And yet ... the elements of "general welfare" that absorb a lot of tax dollars ARE some of the primary things that Americans crow about when marketing their nation to ... nobody in particular.

Cut a few words, and it'll fit nicely on a bumper sticker.
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On 12/30/2009 6:21 PM, Neil Brooks wrote:

cf The Constitution Of The US The Federalist Papers The Declaration Of Independence The letters of Jefferson et al
Therein you will find the source for my "failed arguments" and bumper stickers.
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