At the risk of being immodest, I'm going to be sucking up all the
coffee and eating the last of the donuts after everybody else has
pushed the bar up as high as they might like.
But ... that's just me ... :-)
I also think it IS a silly way to choose who votes and who doesn't,
and was hoping to indicate how unlikely it was that anybody (certainly
here, but ... generally) was ever going to draw a line that stood ANY
chance of leaving THEM outside of the polling place.
See you at the polls!
It always elevates the rhetoric to begin casting aspersions like that.
I didn't mean that the Right had a monopoly on it, but ... what do you
recall about Database Technologies vis-a-vis the Bush/Gore election.
There clearly WERE some paid-by-the-piece ACORN folk who ripped off
the company, and -- in so doing -- harmed the process.
But I've seen no evidence it was condoned, sanctioned, sponsored, or
directed by the organization. If you recall the Database Technologies
story, then you'll know the same can't be said of that whole
That doesn't address the issue of how.
I'd be interested in a citation for that. That doesn't comport with
the info that I've seen.
Well, thank the Good Lord for what I clearly feel is the imminent
opportunity for YOU to set me straight!!!
Meh. Easily countered bumper-sticker arguments. I'll pass on the
As for the rest of your post ... it's tantamount to a "Bush-Cheney" or
"McCain-Palin" sticker on a Suburban or Yukon: redundant and
Go review the MN election. Without the ACORN distortions, Franken
I'd be interested in it too. The problem is that what rises to
the necessary level of proof legally is different than what we
can figure out ourselves as common sense. Watching the ACORN
leaders twist and turn as they are assaulted by their right wing
critics makes it clear that ACORN is hiding a lot. They are tap
dancing like crazy not just on the "'Hogate 2009" but on their
voter signup practices. When it smells like poo, it probably is.
Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as condescending. I was actually
trying to be sort of friendly ...
Go ahead, counter them if they are trivial arguments. Explain to me
why it's OK to enslave me for 5 months a year.
I liked neither. However, the current Messiah's performance is guarnteeing
that I am going to do something I have not done in literally decades -
vote a straight, blind R ticket for the next several elections. I'd even
take Gingrich-Palin over what we have now. (And I almost NEVER vote for a
Tim Daneliuk email@example.com
Don't point that question at me, Man! It's loaded :-)
[and very much akin to me asking whether or not you've stopped beating
your wife yet.....]
I wonder how I made it through eight years of GWB without ever calling
him some horrid media-propagated nickname, despite having been
repulsed by virtually everything he ever did as the Leader of the Free
And why those who -- generally -- claim to love this country "more
than all others," and have respect for its institutions feel so
compelled to act like kids when it comes to politicians they dislike?
Chosen One? Messiah? Socialism? Communism? Black president shining
Nobody who ever invokes terms like that ... should ever wonder why
others pay NO attention to politics.
It's because that sort of behavior -- regardless of which side is
using it -- repulses sensible folk.
Now ... to help re-frame your question ....
Why should you pay taxes?
Because the collective good is served -- in some cases, better, and in
some cases, worse -- by the collective dollars spent for the 'general
welfare --' be it roads, safe cars, safe drinking water, an education
system that -- while in need of serious pimping -- is still ranked
highly in the world -- police protection, fire protection, libraries,
(inadequate) regulation that helps to extinguish Social Darwinism
where the strong may pray on the weak, a mighty military, satellite
navigation, etc., etc., etc., etc.
[And ... health care. A sick uneducated work force (worse than it is
now, I mean) is a one way ticket down on the latter of economic world
hegemony for the good old You Ess Of Ayyyy. We WILL be serving
cocktails, in flight, however.]
These things cost money.
In aggregate, these things also play a BIG role in the average
person's perceptions about why this is The Greatest Place In The World
In Which To Live (I like it, but ... would never go that far).
Take away the economic support for those things, and Social Darwinism
really takes hold. A quick peek: the item that taxes pay for, and
what happens when the wealthy are free from subsidizing it:
-Roads? Hell, I'll buy a Hummer
-Schools? I'll send my kids to private
-Water? I buy bottled
-Pesticides? I buy organic. Let THEM eat DDT
-Banking regulation? Hell, _I_ have an MBA and a high-priced lawyer.
F the rest of them
-Police/fire/public safety? I'm RICH and am covered by Sovereign Deed
and on and on and on.
Well ... if you're on this ng ... you're likely in the group that's
going to be screwed. Enjoy :-) I'll be your cabin-mate, Neil.
I'm actually a hobbyist woodworker, but ... because of a nagging sinus
infection ... have had to take a slight break from my two shaker-style
mahogany night stands.
I spend little time on this forum because -- like the craft,
generally, I'm guessing -- the demographic is painfully narrow.
Again: confirmation bias.
A bunch of people preening around each other, telling each other what
they already know, and are desperate to hear again (and again and
Challenging our closely-held assumptions ... is a good thing :-)
So is wearing an N95 mask when cutting M&Ts in mahog or dado'ing my
baltic birch plywood ;-)
Cough, cough.... sniff, sniff....
I have no personal animus towards the current Prez. I have a loathing
for almost every policy decision AND contempt for those who worship him
as some salvific figure. Hence the term "Messiah".
You lost me already at "collective good". More evil has been done
in the name of the "collective" than any other word in human history.
It has been used to justify all manner of mischief, oppression, brutality,
and horror. So, frankly, I am uninterested in the "collective good."
I'm interested in preserving freedom for as many people and in as large
amount as possible. So, by that definition, the only legitimate
use of taxation is to fund the defense of liberty from threats both within-
and without. Everything else is some form of imbalance of liberty where some
pay and some benefit, but the net amount of freedom does not increase (and in
fact is decreased from some people).
The answer is: I should happily pay taxes to defend my freedom. (And I do.)
I should resist - by all legal and ethical means - to see
tax money used for any other purpose because that is stealing.
Tim Daneliuk firstname.lastname@example.org
Your language says otherwise. If you don't like his supporters, then
demonize them, but -- for a lark -- try doing it like an adult might.
Meanwhile, your schoolyard name-calling (ie, "Messiah") is naught but
silly and puerile.
That's America. The words "General welfare" mean anything to you??
Then lower yourself to THEIR level by twisting the benevolent meaning
of that phrase ... and/or outlaw religion on the same premise.
Nah. Your argument went "thud" when it fell down.
Hm. That certainly just sounds like your own vision of the collective
And nobody could EVER get hurt by that worldview, huh? And no
illegitimate wars could EVER be started if that's the deal, right?
Your former argument now has company on the floor.
Proof by assertion, huh?
And yet ... the elements of "general welfare" that absorb a lot of tax
dollars ARE some of the primary things that Americans crow about when
marketing their nation to ... nobody in particular.
Cut a few words, and it'll fit nicely on a bumper sticker.
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