I don't get it, why is metric better?

Page 8 of 16  
On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 02:04:38 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy

No, all you have to do is move the power plant to the coal fields. They're all over.

...and coal, without the political bullshit, is still cheaper.
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snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote in

Well, I see that after a facetious comment on the railroad item you happily ignored all the other costs of running a coal plant, so we'll just have to leave it at "you're wrong".
John
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On 08/10/2016 7:37 AM, John McCoy wrote:

Well, EPA data May '16 on equivalent But basis was
Powder River Basin Coal $0.40/mmmBtu Central Appalach Coal $1.74/mmmBtu Natural Gas Henry Hub $1.94/mmmBtu
so it's not necessarily a foregone conclusion, even yet, no, even with the currently seriously depressed NG prices that are sure to not last.
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non sequitur. John's point was that the fuel cost isn't the sole cost of coal plant operations. On site storage, fly-ash capture and disposal, bottom-ash, SO2 scrubbers, et. alia.
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On 08/10/2016 9:51 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

No, but it demonstrates that it isn't a foregone conclusion that operational costs are necessarily worse, either...since coal is being burned at plants designed for it, the handling costs have already been amortized into the plant design/construction and so while they're there, it's not like it's a new, added cost.
And, of course, to replace existing generation requires that one must either convert an existing boiler or build a new plant, either of which is obviously nonzero cost.
I've nothing against a utility choosing NG if it works for them; only that I think the current NG glut is not going to last and whereas there really isn't too much application for coal (some but not as much) other than for baseload central-station generation, why not use the fuel source most suitable rather than waste one that has higher alternate use values that are owing to that it is most convenient for residential heat, etc., etc., etc., ... Think what one could to for homeowners in the far NE on heating costs if got it much more widely distributed up there than is currently and they could get off fuel oil, for example.
And, of course, John's viewpoint is colored somewhat because he's "in the oil patch" so the solution to everything is oil. I'm more of a pragmatist from the utility end looking to continue to provide power to the grid _given my current generation mix_ going forward and wishing the powers-that-be would let me go at it in what seems the most efficient and cost-effective manner rather than mandating this and that and something else.
Not to mention that "in a former life" I spent several years selling/supporting a line of online coal analyzers to mines, prep plants and utilities to monitor coal quality and control various processes and have seen firsthand the devastation to the economic welfare of the coal country caused by current policy. That's a very high cost to pay that isn't being factored in by much of anybody.
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You're assuming that the "handling cost" is nonrecurring. Why would that be the case?
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On 08/12/2016 7:56 PM, J. Clarke wrote: ...

No such thing; it only has to be at or below the percentage difference of fuel cost difference...for Powder Basin, that's a lot of slop...and, while smaller for NG, it's not zero...
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On 08/12/2016 8:59 PM, dpb wrote:

And, just to be fair, in _today's_ NG glut markets, an effiency-weighted price on a $/MWhr basis the same market points in May were
Powder River Basin Coal $4.33/MWhr Central Appalach Coal $18.78/MWhr Natural Gas Henry Hub $15.78/MWhr
so Powder River coal wins pretty handily; bituminous Appy coal is a little more than NG.
But, the actual utility fuel costs to put power on the grid is far more complex involving delivered prices, the terms of fuel supply contracts, and the workings of fuel markets. Particularly the coal-fired plants have long-term contracts in place that insulate them from shorter-term fluctuations. This is much like the airlines and their fuel contracting; great to be locked-in when prices are rising, not so good at the moment when global oil is in the dumper. That isn't going to last forever, though...and anyone who thinks NG is going to stay so cheap for a really, really long time is just dreaming imo...
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Note what he said: "the handling costs have already been amortized into the plant design/construction and so while they're there, it's not like it's a new, added cost"
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On 08/13/2016 12:15 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

It is, of course, a /MW(e)hr cost of operation which is what they're harping on...the only point in showing coal prices is that even in today's markets, market coal prices are still within competing rankings despite the tanking oil market and NG supplies having really depressed NG at the moment.
One has to remember, however, that if one has invested up to $1B or so in a generating station, that's an investment that can't just be lightly walked away from 5-10 yr down the road when the pendulum again swings; these are 40-yr minimum kinds of decisions one must make and that decision may have to predate the actual time by another 5 year or more...not easy to read those tea leaves without some uncertainty...
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After all, someone might figure out how to attach a coil and magnets to their poor grandmother's casket for when she inevitably begins spinning in her grave.
Puckdropper
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On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:37:30 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy

Except that I'm not.
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And even then, steam locos had been oil-fueled since the 1920s.
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snipped-for-privacy@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in writes:

The one I learned on was built in 1913 and converted to oil before WW1.
About 10% of US steam locomotives burned oil. Generally it was used in places where oil was abundant and coal wasn't, because everything being equal (i.e. including the cost of shipping) coal was cheaper.
John
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Gonna guess the "hoo" in that case was the burial mound itself.
John
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On 08/08/2016 5:26 PM, John McCoy wrote:

Perhaps, but if so, that one hasn't made it to the list of tourist attractions... :) None of the locals I could find including curators at various museums, etc., had a clue as to the origin of the name.
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Was born in Chelmsford. My relatives now live around Dedham, which is almost in Suffolk.
John
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On 8/8/2016 12:38 PM, John McCoy wrote:

border at Capel St.Mary gets her meat from the Dedham butcher. I had lunch at the Talbooth a couple of months ago. Graham
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Funny how small the world is, sometimes.
John
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On 8/8/2016 4:39 PM, John McCoy wrote:

conversation, the salesman mentioned that he'd lived in the UK as a boy when his Canadian mother married an Englishman. I asked him where he'd lived and saying that I'd probably never heard of the place, he said Capel St.Mary! Not only that, he'd been a playmate of my nephew! Graham
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