I did a bad ting George

[RayV]

I needed to hang a large, 30 x 30, corner cabinet that SWMBO had me build. I decided to use the angled cleat method hoping for maximum strength since a TV will sit on it. Anyway...

I angled the blade on my right-tilt saw to 45d and put the fence on the left of the blade. I was ripping a 4x27 inch piece roughly in half for the cleats(I didn't want to try and squeeze a push stick between the blade and the fence on the right.

Expecting that the piece would want to lift up cutting it on the left, I clamped a feather board to my fence to hold down the piece. So far so good, or so I thought.

I couldn't get a push stick to help me all of the way with the cut because of the clamp and the feather board so I ended up pulling the piece through from the back of the saw.

I know this was wrong, so what is the right way to do this, aside from buying a new tool.

[Jock]

A smaller diameter push stick - I know cats only come furry and round but a bit of broom handle will do - even if you cut it on the rip. Alternately, cut the length of stock overlength then you can poke it in far enough for the piece you want to cut on the angle. Turn the saw off and retract it & cut the length back to what you want. Good luck. Jock

[George]

Push blocks. Narrow versions of what came with your jointer. Pieces of 3/4 stock, for instance, cut with handholds fore and aft, three-four inches above the flat portion. Glue a chunk of mouse pad or other resilient material to the flat bottom of one to use as both hold and push, leave a

1/4" hook on the heel of the other for the final.

Paint them some flashy color so they won't just look like another piece of scrap and store them with your other push sticks on a shelf right of the saw where you can grab one as required even if you forgot to preposition them. Right next to the featherboards, for instance.

[LRod]

Not that this is any proof, but the guy that peddles (peddled?) the Grip-Tite magnetic featherboard at woodworking shows used to do that all the time as part of the demo.

I would say that with the featherboard the OP was using he had sufficient control over the work (certainly as much as the Grip-Tite guy) that he could safely go around the back of the saw and pull with impunity.

What would be the safety issue, anyway? If the blade snatched the work (unlikely with the featherboard), the worst that could happen is a spear gets propelled across the shop, but the operator is well out of the line of fire being at the back of the saw or on his way to it.

[Upscale]

I think there's problems with this method. At some point, he's going to have to reach over the blade to pull the wood into the blade. (Danger 1). If it's a long board, there's a chance the pulled part of the board will go past the end of the fence causing the wood to skew. (Danger 2). If that doesn't happen, there's similar chance a little download pressure off the edge of the tablesaw will cause the board to lift. (Danger 3) There's also the possibility of him being in the way of the wood exiting the blade, causing him to have to move his body to continue cutting. (Danger 4).

In almost every circumstance, I can see the possibility of not having full control of the wood as it's being cut. It's fraught with too many possible problems as far as I'm concerned.

[Battleax]

So we can't pull from the back of a table saw now?

[LRod]

When? He starts the board from the front, as usual. Part way through the cut, he moves around to the back of the saw. Yes, the work is unattended at that point. Yes, the featherboard is holding it in place. Yes, it's stable, and in the sense that it's not particularly susceptible to any forces the saw might otherwise impart while it's not moving, safe.

How is that any different than the long board extending past the front end of the fence at the beginning of the cut? Think quality of operator technique.

How is that any different than possible pressure variables applied to the board at the infeed side? Think quality of operator technique.

Uh, so? Do you finish all of your cuts standing in the same place you started? I'll bet you don't. Think sheet goods.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your assessment, and no one can dictate what practices YOU should feel safe with and implement in YOUR shop, but I wouldn't have any problem with the process described. Does that make me an unsafe idiot? I don't think so (and no, you didn't imply that), but there are lots of operations that can be developed that while unfamiliar to some, are nonetheless safe and practical.

Moreover, I learned in a discussion on another forum that sometimes other factors are involved. I was in a table saw safety discussion with someone, thinking we were on the same page so far as basic premises were concerned, until the other party revealed that he was so afraid of using his saw that he bought a power feeder for it. That changed the entire tenor of the discussion. Well, ended it actually. There wasn't any point in me continuing.

[David]

hmmm... you are advocating PULLING the work piece through? What would happen if the piece kicked back and the operator has a strong grasp on the wood? Wouldn't that pull his hand INTO the BLADE? At least with a kickback when one is standing WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE, their hand won't be drawn into the blade. The worse that would happen is a blunt force injury or damage to items in the shop from the resultant airborne missile. But no AMPUTATION.

Dave

[John Girouard]

I always thought that the safety issue was the possibility of the operator's hand/arm being pulled towards the blade if kickback were to occur. Now, I would hope that I'd have my wits about me enough to release the board if such a thing started to happen, but I'm certainly not willing to test that theory.

-John

[Upscale]

It's not completely stable. As well, I've left wood unattended for a few seconds while the blade is spining. It's often burned the wood or otherwise marred a clean edge.

When you're in front pushing the board through, one can safely put a little lateral pressure against the fence. When you're pulling it out from the back, you can only grab it to pull when it's past the table edge and beyond the fence a little after that. A little sideways lateral pulling the wrong way and it's skewed.

When you're in front, you can push it onto an outfeed table. When you're in back, you're in front of the outfeed table aren't you? If you're pushing it from the side, it's more of an awkward motion. (and yes, I've done it before)

You'd be completely wrong. I do all my cutting from one position without moving around, but not for any of the reasons that you might consider. As well, this is all about control. Walking around while feeding (or pulling a board) through a tablesaw is increasing the chances for something unfortunate to happen. And yes, I know some do it all the time.

Something else has occurred to me too. Considering the rotation direction of the blade, unless you're using an enclosed cabinet saw with a full dust cover over the blade, you're going be exposed to various bits of wood dust and splinters shooting up in your direction if you're at the back of the saw.

Sure there are other methods that can be considered safe, but consider this. Tablesaws have been around for a long time. If pulling a board through a saw was comparably safe as pushing one through, there would be quite a few more people advocating it than there are. Until I hear from a number of those people, your single (so far) support for pulling from the back isn't going to cut it for me. No offence is intended against you with this statement.

[Robatoy]

That is the way I do it. I cut a lot of 3 1/2" wide strips, to create a full bevel on both sides. (I glue these under my seams in solid surface fabrication.)

I make them longer that I need... then stop the saw. Pull out and cut to length. I always put my fence to the left of the blade..that way nothing gets pinched between the blade and the fence.

[David]

think about this: which way is a piece propelled during a kickback? Would you want to have a firm grasp on a board that is going to be forcefully ejected towards the front of the saw, dragging your hand into the blade because you have chosen unwisely to PULL a board through? DOH!

Dave

[Australopithecus scobis]

Trick I picked up in an Aikido class: Your index finger hangs on until you will it to let go. Your other fingers will let go on their own. Something about swinging in the trees, I suppose. Anyway, if you do want to try the pulling technique, just hold with your other fingers. (I have no opinion on the TS technique part of the discussion.) Keep the tip in mind for any situation where hanging on would be the wrong thing to do in an emergency.

[LRod]

Have you ever seen the magic trick where someone yanks a tablecloth off a table fully set with china, flatware, and crystal? Same prinicple. I would bet a large amount of money (mortgage, first born) that it is not possible to maintain a grip on a piece of wood in sudden kickback mode with anything short of ice tongs and a chain..

[LRod]

See my response to your other post.

Think yanking a tablecloth off a fully set table.

[LRod]

Nevertheless, see my response to David. Think tablecloth and fully set table, index finger and evolution notwithstanding.

[Donnie Vazquez]

I did test it and lost in a big way. I damn near lost 3 fingers! I'm here to tell you from experience, there's no freakin' way you can pull away fast enough. And I was just putting light pressure on top of the board, I wans't even holding it. See my old post for a recap and a link to some pretty pics :-)

[bridger]

according to that post you were pushing the board when that happened. this thread is about going around to the back of the saw and pulling. different animal.

[bridger]

45 seems a bit steep for a french cleat. it's enough that the cabinet is trying to wedge the cleat off of the wall. I generally go more like 20 or 30 degrees. you really just need to keep the cabinet from shifting forward off of the cleat.

sounds right so far.

as long as your featherboards are set up right, this is just fine. it's a method I use with lots of stationary machinery, not just the table saw.

[bridger]

if the workpiece was short, I'd say there was danger of having your hands pulled into the blade in case of a kickback. but then, if the board was short, he wouldn't have had to go around and pull in the first place. ripping short boards is always risky. but this was a long board. with a long board, pulling from the back, you are far enough from the blade that the wood is gonna get pulled out of your hands first.

second, he was using a featherboard. while I suppose it is possible to get a kickback with a featherboard, kickback prevention is one of the things that featherboards are designed to prevent.

besides, where was it written that you gotta stand in a certain place only when you use a saw. where I'm SUPPOSED TO BE is where _I_ decide is safe/effective for the operation at hand. with appropriate stock control I stop feed and change position frequently with some operations and have for years with no AMPUTATIONs.