I did a bad ting George

[nospambob]

[David]

There is a semi-klutzy neighbor a few doors down that sets up his TS on the sidewalk and does free-hand crosscuts during remodeling chores. I shudder when I've watched him, as I know he does it out of ignorance; not practice. I gently suggested he avoid cutting w/o the miter gauge--my words fell on deaf ears.

I'm a "no guard" kinda guy, though. took mine off after the first nasty incident due solely to the guard causing a kickback.

Dave

[LRod]

I used the tablecloth example, not to illustrate that the cloth needs to be pulled just right--that's irrelevant in the analogy. The real analogue in this situation has to do with inertia. The fingers gripping the wood and the wood suddenly and swiftly pulled away. Twisting and lifting has nothing to do with it. It is utterly impossible in the pulling scenario postulated to grip a piece of wood in such a way that one could hang onto it if it was suddenly and swiftly jerked away. Try it, away from the saw.

[LRod]

He's never had a guard or splitter on the saw (nor do 98% of wreckers), but please cite the episode of The New Yankee Workshop in which you saw him free hand crosscut.

[LRod]

WRONG! To quote someone I read. When pulling you are utterly out of the line of fire of a kickback. When pushing you are in the line of fire of a kickback. That fact alone makes pulling less dangerous than pushing.

But as someone else said, this whole discussion is silly. It's just like the grounding in the DC system. Someone somewhere came up with the idea that pulling is dangerous and has decided to trot out the boogeyman in this chicken little conversation and everyone is jumping on it.

For one thing, no one has suggested pulling stock through is the standard modus operandi for all table saw operations. It is appropriate in a tiny, specialized arena of action that isn't easily accommodated in any other way. In fact, it is especially appropriate because the alternative is clearly dangerous.

Geez, guys, stop making up danger. There's plenty of real danger to pontificate about. You're as bad as the people on one of the other woodworking fora who got all worked up about someone using their calipers on a piece of wood on a lathe while it was turning.

[bridger]

but _he_ was standing in front of the saw. there is a huge difference between standing in front of the saw and reaching over the blade and standing behind the saw and pulling a board through a featherboard. you're being deliberately obtuse, BAD.

[David]

I doubt you are taking into account how your arms would move during the split second of shock you would feel when there is an explosive kickback--the sudden noise and movement could cause you to involuntarily move your hand into a dangerous spot--namely the blade. THAT'S why I continue to insist that dragging a board through from the rear isn't such a hot idea. Obviously we disagree on this point... :)

Dave

[David]

You can use your saw in any manner you see fit.

You are being deliberately rude, but you already knew that, didn't you?

Dave

[lgb]

I've got a pair of the anti-kickback wheels on my rip fence. They hold the board in place while I walk around to pull it through. No way is that board going to pull my hand into the blade, the wheels only allow about 1/4" of backward movement.

And since they hold the board down and against the fence, "kickback" is just about impossible - "pushback" is as bad as it gets, and as I said,that's limited to about 1/4".

[David]

I once considered those, but I do too many narrow ripping operations for a push stick to clear the wheels. Otherwise they look like an effective safety addition to a TS.

Dave

[Lawrence Wasserman]

Have you ever played "tug of war" ? (Personally I see nothing wrong with pulling a board from the back of the saw under certain circumstances)

[David]

snip

consider that you aren't pulling parallel to the ground, but are situated OVER the board and hence have your hand(s) on TOP of the board and are tugging it through. can you NOT see the POSSIBILITY that your hand could come in contact with the blade from a kickback (assuming OF COURSE that there's no blade guard to prevent such contact?

Dave

[bridger]

the danger reflex is to pull your hands in close to your body. if you are in front of the saw reaching over the blade, that would put your hands through the blade. if you are behind the saw, pulling a rip through, the danger reflex moves your hands away from the blade.

[bridger]

here's a sequence that might work better for you. first rip the board an inch or so wider than you need. then tilt the saw and rip bevel on one edge. increment the fence as necessary, flip the board and rip bevel on the other. return the saw to 90 degrees and rip down the center.

[J]

But you ARE pulling parallel to the ground. There is no other way to pull it. The table prevents you from pulling down, and common sense prevents you from lifting it up.

Note: you only pull after you have something on the back side of the blade to pull on. That is you have pushed halfway through and then pull the rest of the way.

Also, your hand is typically on the side of the wood so it is on top and the bottom at the same time.

[lgb]

Mine just clamp onto the rip fence, so it's fairly easy to remove them when required. A lot of times I just flip them up.

[Buster]

Sorry, I wrote this a little later at night. I will reiterate a little. You are mostly correct, in the example given I would say you are 99% correct (I never say 100%). It is VERY unlikely given the fact that the operator in the original post was in any danger. Considering he used feather boards to hold the piece in and down it would be unlikely to get kickback in the first place. The only real 'danger' is when he lets go of the board to move into his new position behind the table saw.

I agree too that you would have no chance to be pulled into the blade, I however carefully used the word 'move' rather than pull. If you were pulling through a smaller board (I left this out and it is an important point), a kickback could bring your hands in contact with the blade. The twisting and the lifting would have the effect of pushing the board into your hands, while at the same point you would have in your mind to push down. This is a case of looking beyond physics and looking at the body reaction.

With a longer board, with your hands off the table you are correct and the danger is small.

However I will maintain this is not a safe way to use the table saw.

1. There is no safe way to start a cut by pulling, which mean the board will be unattended at some point.

1. Without a featherboard there is no way to maintain pressure against the fence without reaching over the blade. If your were to apply pressure on the back you'd be pinching the blade (or splitter) which would not be good. Plus putting pressure when the end of the board is off the table would essentially be levering it against the fence. Judgeing by the number of posters who don't use splitters, I doubt many people use faetherboards.

2. Why bother when you can just use a pushstick.

[Mark & Juanita]

Well, in any scenario in which I would be pulling a board from the outfeed side, I can see *no* possibility in which my hand would be pulled that far into the blade. The kickback would have to physically lift me from the floor and drag me across the outfeed table in order for that to occur since the only times I can envision such an operation entail the cutting of long pieces that are going to extend past the outfeed table.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

[Mark & Juanita]

Just to add fuel to the fire -- has anyone who experienced kickback while using a push stick ever had the pushstick propelled at them? I have. When I first got my shaper, I made the mistake while testing one of the profile bits of having the wood with fingerboards holding the piece against the fence laterally,but not vertically. I was using a pushstick to guide the piece, but somehow managed to push just slightly off such that the wood twisted a bit upward while moving through the cutter. The twist caused a kickback event -- by design, I was not in the line of fire, but the kickback pushed the push stick into my arm and caused a fairly nasty gash. Sooo, just because you are using a push-stick don't think that you have eliminated all possibilities for injury to yourself.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

[David]

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ in that case you aren't any where near the blade, so of course you'd be spared a mishap.