Hydro Power - direct drive v. electrical

[Jay Pique]

For some reason I have the urge to create a modern hydro power shop. I'm aware that you can convert hydro power into hydroelectric power, and then just plug in your machines, but the direct drive aspect has more appeal to me.

Anyone out there know of a "modern" direct drive shop? It seems like with the advances in metallurgy and tooling you could create a much more efficient shop than those used in colonial times. Sealed bearings, tight tolerances, sharp blades, finely milled gears and clutching mechanisms - they all add up, And man what a fun project that would be!

JP

*********** Dreamer.

[Mark Jerde]

Don't forget the modern ultra-efficient fllywheels, or a 2nd source of power such as your Dodge Ram. ;-)

I'm interested in this too. If I hit the lotto and can move when I want to live, reliable 24x7 electrical power is a fiction.

-- Mark

[George]

Starts with the water supply. Got to be reliable in volume and rate. Before you think you can impound enough, remember, that stream is not yours. If it's "navigable," you can't interfere in any way. If it has fish, snails or some other form of strange slimy life falling under the care of the DNR, you may also forget it.

Hell, if there's an eagle nest at your swimming hole, don't tell anyone, else they'll close the stream. Eagles raise a young'un just fine with a family swimming within a hundred feet, BTW.

[Jay Pique]

I'm actually considering an old, but still functional grist mill. My guess would be that I could increase power output by a multiple using the same flow/head with modern materials. I've actually considered investigating how much electromechanical power it would take to turn the existing shaft, keep it running for nostalgia, and then use the excess to power other tools (electromechanically). It could be sort of a tribute to the old and the new.

JP

[G. Lewin]

Wow. How cool would that be.

What do you mean by "still functional?" Does the water wheel on the mill still run? Do you have any idea how much horse power it's producing? Or can you estimate from the head and flow rate?

What kind of wheel does it have? Depending on it's type/condition, this might be the best place to start for improved power. Of course, you may have so much power already that it doesn't matter much (unless you're going to sell power back to the grid, which you can do with solar power in places -- no idea what kind of permitting would be needed to sell hydro). Are you going to run things with leather belts and such?

Greg

[Sweet Sawdust]

[Norman D. Crow]

In '86 I visited a place called "Ben's Mill" in NH, prior to attending '86 "Aspencade" in Lake George, NY. This mill had been featured on the "Discovery" or "Learning" channels on TV. His mill was using straight hydro power through shafts & belts, but instead of a wheel he used a "penstock" turbine for power.

[Jay Pique]

I've heard that a penstock is more efficient than a wheel - that's what they use at Sturbridge Village. Not as visually appealing though.

JP

[Jay Pique]

Yeah, it's actually been a recurring theme of my "go to sleep" fantasies for quite a while. Typically it's situated in an old growth forest in the middle of a mountain range....

Still functional in that it still actually mills grain. They make excellent pancake mix!

I really don't know how much power it produces. The mill isn't even "for sale" right now, but it's awfully dilapidated and obviously neglected. What a gorgeous spot though. Once you got rid of the abandonned 18 wheeler trailers and other (multitudinous) crap, you could really have something great on your hands.

JP

[Eugene]

I always heard some Amish communities still run that way while others do convert to electricity and power the tools that way. We have a lot of Amish communities an hour or so outside of our city but I haven't made it to any of their shops during a time they were open to see.

[Andy Dingley]

Nope.

You could do this. But there are good reasons why it's not a good idea. Water machinery is slow speed, woodworking machinery is high speed. The easiest way to get from one to the other is an electric transmission, and that has a few other obvious advantages too.

One of my neighbours has a workshop built with the house, sometime around 1900. There's a gas engine (single cylinder, 6' flywheel) driving a lineshaft, then a few big metal turning lathes and mills driven by belts. even then it's a set-up with slower headstock speeds than you really want with modern materials and tooling, and it's awkward to use.

If I had a burning desire to build water-wheel powered machinery, I'd take up blacksmithing and build a power hammer. Some time this week I'm off to visit an 18th century brass mill, just up-river from me. Water-driven hammers pounded out brass sheet.

[J T]

Wed, Jul 28, 2004, 12:43am [e-mail] (Jay=A0Pique) queries: Anyone out there know of a "modern" direct drive shop?

Yes. Google and ye shall find.

JOAT Expensive tennis shoes won't cure a sore toe.

- Bazooka Joe JERUSALEM RIDGE

[Dave Hinz]

Well, there are these "gear" things I've heard of which seem to show some promise.

I'd be more concerned about exposed belts, but if it's all done with rotating shafts, you could get away from that _and_ get the rotational speed desired at the same time.

Sounds like a fun project, but the first calculation has to be "How many horsepower do I get from this water wheel".

Dave Hinz

[Michael Daly]

That's an easy calculation.

The hard one is "How do I find a property that is for sale, is near where I want to live and has sufficient water running across it, has the appropriate grade change to allow me to generate power and I can afford to buy?"

DAMHIKT.

Mike

[Norman D. Crow]

JOAT Expensive tennis shoes won't cure a sore toe.

JOAT, Wudja mind changing your sig line? I keep mis-reading the dern thing & thinking it says "Explosive tennis . . . ." and SWMBO keeps wondering why I sit here chuckling.

[Jay Pique]

Yep - you gotta have the funds!

JP

******************** "Business Plans for Dummies"

[Michael Daly]

Money wasn't the problem. All the other factors were. I could find _no_ property that had appropriate water and slope.

Oh, yes... I left out the part about also having local laws that would allow you to dam the stream.

All those mills you see - they were there before everyone else came along. Start from scratch today? - forget it.

Mike

[Jay Pique]

Hmmm...I've got the location, you've got the money, and we both like woodworking..... How do you feel about beautiful upstate New York?

JP

[Unisaw A100]

I've got dual hydro drives on the mower. One lever forward and the other all the way back and you can spin around like a top.

Has nothing to do with wooddorking, just gloating I guess.

UA100, who has taken lawn mowing to a whole nuther level...

[J T]

JOAT The highway of fear is the road to defeat.

- Bazooka Joe JERUSALEM RIDGE