Hybrid Tablesaws

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Mike Howland wrote:

As usual, A.M. Wood wrote: "For 1/2 the price you can get a used unisaw that's much more sturdy and has a 110/220 volt motor. But if you have the extra bucks to spend on a lesser piece of equipment go for it. Plus the new saw will bions e more pretty and shiney and the wood does care."
If you will use the advanced search at the top of the page and enter "hybrid" you will find endless opinions and discussions of these saws. My advice is find out where A.M.Woods resides and go there immediately! They have a large supply of people begging to get rid of their unisaws cheaply there.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Who peed in your cheerios this morning? The man asked for opinions/advice and I provided mine. My advice is that the current stuff coming out of chaiwan with a Delta label isn't worth buying. Older used equipment, even at 75% of the retail price of a new machine, is a much better value because the manufacturer's have been cuting quality to keep costs down.
A.M. Wood
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As you suggest I waited 8 months early this year diligently searching the Atlanta, Jacksonville,Savannah, and Charleston SC Craig's lists, tool auctions, and newspapers for used Unisaws. I found one 3 phase unit and one in several baskets covered with four coats of paint applied with a brush. I finally purchased a new Steel City hybrid with 3HP 220V motor and am so glad I did. It's quality is why the current Fine Woodworking Tools and Shop issue recommends the Sears/Steel City Orion table saws for their under 5K workshop. Better yet, it's available right now. Now you could save some poor guy from having to settle for a crappy quality "chaiwan" saw by putting your old Unisaw on the market right now. How about it? Let us know when it's listed at a good price...one we can gloat about. Too many seekers chasing too few Unisaws is poor advice.
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I did see several on e-bay right after reading this post:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DELTA-ROCKWELL-10-UNISAW-TILTING-ARBOR-TABLE-SAW_W0QQitemZ130057057689QQihZ003QQcategoryZ57124QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Ebay isn't local for all of us. If you can't check out the item or have to make extensive elaborate arrangements to ship it, then it's not very helpful.
resrfglc wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/DELTA-ROCKWELL-10-UNISAW-TILTING-ARBOR-TABLE-SAW_W0QQitemZ130057057689QQihZ003QQcategoryZ57124QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:28:23 GMT, Mike Howland

FWIW, I bought a General 50-220C M1 during Woodcraft's 10% (or more) off sale last September. I did compare with the Delta 36-717. The Woodcraft guys said they sold more of that model than any other. However, in my opinion, the General is better.
Yes, it's a hybrid. About $850 on sale. With a Biesemeyer clone fence. So far it's great. It replaced a 10" Craftsman contractors saw with all the usual mods - fence, belt, pulleys, insert.
Smaller footprint - yes. But the top takes up just as much room. In fact, I built an extension wing to hang on the right side. In my studio, I use the tablesaws top for work other than sawing. My studio is small.
Considering that I got along o.k. with the power of the Craftsman (nothing to write home about) the 2hp motor the General comes with is marvelous! But more power was something I'd wanted for a long time, but I couldn't justify a new saw to wifey solely on that. This fall it became apparent that dust collection was going to be necessary and that provided the final reason to buy a new saw.
There isn't a darn thing to complain about with this saw. It's powerful enough, it's pretty good on dust collection, 'cept dust still comes off the blade on the top. I gotta buy a shark guard yet to pull dust from the topside. But that'll be true for any tablesaw.
BTW, I had no trouble selling my old Craftsman saw. It appears that if the saw is at all any good, there's buyers lined up out the door and around the block to get one. In light of that, good luck holding out for a used cabinet saw.
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George Max wrote:

Thanks George. Still looking but, like you, dust collection is my big concern. The Craftsman saw runs just fine, is accurate enough for me and fine for the ripping I do (I break out the bandsaw for the thicker material). I already have a buyer lined up for the contractor saw I have. Mike
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On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:25:33 GMT, Mike Howland

Ha! Just how it went for me, 'cept I was doing *all* my ripping on the TS, even 3" thick hard maple. Yes, it was tough. I didn't have a bandsaw when that had to be done.
Now you're nearing decision time. Good luck.
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Hello Mike, If I may throw two cents worth in, may I suggest you rethink your situation. You said you're considering a hybrid just because of footprint. It sounds to me like your real issue is not so much the saw base as the table top. Table tops are usually larger than the base and most are pretty close to the same before extensions unless you downgrade to a benchtop.
If you haven't already, consider the average lengths of the wood(s) you're working with. If it's plywood sheets perhaps you can get by with some kind of vertical sheet-cutting rig. If you're cutting long stretches for cabinets then I'm not sure how you will work around extension tables without maneuvering your existing (if you have them) work tables. Some people utilize the table saw itself as a workbench in crowded spaces by placing a top over it when not in use. You can make a creative use of tables in conjuntion with your saw so that you are not dependent on permanent extension wings but you'll run into issues when you want to use your fence on them if they're not exactly the same depth as your table saw and you can't get them aligned properly. Again, the size of the wood you commonly work with will dictate a lot of what you can and can't get away with.
As for dust collection, a cabinet without any suction on it is going to shoot dust in your face and soon will cloud up your basement. At some point you have to address that and a cabinet isn't much better than a nylon bag with a string tied around the dust chute.
As for table saws, I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't think their brand is the best. I used to own a Craftsman and I believe that what they market as 'contractor saws' are nothing more than benchtops in a contractor saw coat. I've got the Delta 36-982 contractor saw (comes w/ Biesemeyer fence and side extension table). I don't think anything Craftsman sells holds a candle to it, but, as you see, I have my preference too. Delta considers it their 'contractor saw'. If you get a chance drop in at Lowe's and have a look. One particular problem I have with Craftsman is their rampant use of plastics throughout their tools, their poor knockoff features and their non-standard designs (e.g. miter slots, clearance plates, etc.). I just think for the same money you get more from Delta and Jet. I'm sure there are hordes ready to pull their teeth out that I didn't mention Steel City, Powermatic and General. Well, when I get the money to just go hog wild, perhaps- meanwhile I'm big on Delta (non-shopmaster) and Jet. I think they both offer great all around value (quality, durability, features, customer service) for the money. But, again, I have a hard time seeing the saw as much the main issue as table space and the size of wood you work with. If you're limited with space and moving from a Sears contractor to a hybrid I think you'll either have the same issue or it will be worse since the hybrid is likely to be as large or larger than a Sears contractor. If anything I would consider finding a quality benchtop (likely Bosch or Dewalt) and using benches in some configuration as make shift extension tables if space were the issue.
If anyone doesn't like my Delta/Jet suggestion please feel free to ship me the best Table Saw of your choice and I'll be happy to give it a try. :-)
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snip If anything I would consider finding a quality benchtop

May I suggest Grizzly deserves a look? I am very pleased with my G1023 cabinet and it was a smokin deal a few years ago, and a buddy got the contractor model with the aluminum fence w/T slot in it and he is super pleased, he built an entire kitchen cabinet set with it, he's unbeliveably anal and had no complaints at all. It seems that many of these units look about the same (General, Jet, Grizzly, etc) and I wouldn't doubt they have some common relationship back China or thereabouts where nearly all of this stuff comes from. Good luck. I like having a 220 3 horse saw, although its overkill 90% of the time.
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On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 01:20:14 -0800, Chrisgiraffe wrote:

Personally I'm in the market for a table saw myself and for various reasons a Unisaw is out of the question. Took a look at that Delta and the best price I find on it is higher than the top end of the Craftsman line, which is a cabinet saw, not a contractor saw, and also has a Biesemeyer fence, and very little plastic in evidence. Their next step down is the same mechanism on legs instead of an enclosed base, and with their fence--it's a lot cheaper than the Delta but the two examples I've looked at so far both have some flex in the fence which may be indicative of a design problem or may be just the store's half-assed job of assembly. I wasn't aware that there was any established standard for clearance plates, but the miter slot appears to be completely standard give or take manufacturing tolerances.

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--John
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J. Clarke wrote:

I just finished assembling a Grizzly G0478 Hybrid as a surprise birthday gift for my brother-in-law. His wife left it up to me to do the research on saws. I looked at Delta, Jet, General and the Craftsman Professional. There was a price limit ($1000) and a time factor. The Grizzly was $695 + $89 shipping to Boise,Id.It arrived in three days. It's a very good saw for the money. He was surprised too. Jim
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Chrisgiraffe wrote:

Interesting. Cheap toolmakers using non-standard parts in their machines. Some of the trolls who frequent this newsgroup assert this is absolutely not true. Why those fools even make fun of people who would even think this. Of course, maybe they'd care to explain how to get a standard miter gauge into a crapsman miter slot.
AM Wood
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A.M. Wood wrote:

I surely don't want to make fun of you (you might not sell me your Unisaw for a good price in the near future) but this foolish troll uses his Steel City/Crapsman miter gauge in Lee Valley tracks (http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&pE161&cat=3,43576,52799) which I added to my newly built outfeed table. My miter gauge is 3/4" x 3/8"...same size as the Lee Valley, Woodcraft. etc. miter tracks. Is the Delta miter gauge not also 3/4 x 3/8? My old Craftsman contractor saw also had a 3/4 x 3/8 miter. Well, if I'm a non-standard fool I must be in good company ... might ask Robin Lee why his miter tracks allow non-standard junk to slide in them.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Glad your miter gauge is 3/4 x 3/8. The chap who wrote the message I quoted however didn't seem to be as lucky with the slot on his crapsman saw. He's also neither the first nor the only person to have had this "issue" with crapsman products. I sure as hell know I had similar issues with non-standard components on the garbage i purchased from ryobi.
No need to worry that offending me would in any way influence my willingness to sell you anything I may have on the market. While I don't plan on selling the saw any time soon, if I do my only concern is going to be the color of your money.
Picked up a Delta Heavy Duty shaper last week. Paid $320. Wonder how much the shiney new stuff comming out of chaiwan is running these days. Was a tough haul though. Unfortunately there weren't any plastic parts to lighten the load, just plain old-fashioned steel and cast iron. Oh well.
AM Wood
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On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:55:15 -0800, rmeyer1 wrote:

I find it interesting that Incra makes their miter gage in the same nonstandard dimension as the miter slot in my Craftsman band saw. If Craftsman is the only tool made that Incra accessories will fit, well then hot damn ah'm gittin' a lot o' Craftsman in the future <grin>.
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One of the points I often make about choosing a tool is the availability of generic accessories - a lesson learned the hard way with the purchase of a Craftsman Tilt-table Band Saw (actually a gift from my wife) with a (non-standard) 80" blade (yes, I know one can order blades to fit (at a premium over stock units, of course))
Now, I tend to shop the accessories for a tool before deciding on the range of tools to compare and contrast prior to purchase.
But, I will say that the old "Satisfaction guarantee" came in handy on a number of occasions when a quick jaunt to the store had me back home in an hour with a new tool or a credit on my Sears card.

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Chrisgiraffe wrote:

Yet another person with absolutely NO knowledge of the Craftsman hybrids.
They are wonderful saws that compete favorably with anything out there.
They are built by Orion, which is composed of former Delta folks.
I believe the only plastic bits on mine are the handwheels and the motor door.
Check out the 22104,22114 and 22124.
You'll be pleasantly surprised.
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I tried about six months ago to order a 22124. They said it would be delivered within seven days. On day eight, I called to find out what the problem was. The order had been cancelled. They didn't know who cancelled it or why. About a week later, I got a bill for it anyway. They cancelled the saw but not the bill. Bit of a hassle getting that straitened out. I tried ordering the same saw again last week. Again, they cancelled my order but this time they at least sent me an email saying so. They said something about getting more orders than they anticipated. If they actually do sell these saws, I don't know where. BTW, they still advertise this saw on their website as being available in my area.
Gus wrote:

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Gus wrote:

Hi Gus. I think you're correct in assuming (though it is an assumption) that I don't know everything about the Craftsman hybrids. To be honest, I've been burned too many times by Sears to really consider their hybrids. When I started woodworking I purchased nearly everything in their mid-price range and every single tool I bought turned out to be either poorly made or low on features compared to other makes for the same price. You mention that Orion makes their hybrids. I understand Sears tools are made by different manufacturers, even their current line of table saws have differing manufacturers. I've read many arguements that some manufacturers stink and others simply get bad specs/high tolerances from buyers. Again, my feeling is that if I'm burned once by a company I'm hesitant to go back for seconds. Perhaps the Sears hybrids deserve a second look but by the same token perhaps Sears should strive for better quality along every tool line or not post such silly things as horsepower ratings in huge lettering on their saws, shop vacs and other power equipment. Perhaps they should also try to get people who've actually used woodworking tools to sell them. In fact, perhaps they should get woodworkers to consult with the purchasers before they market their tools- call that a crazy idea but it's certainly helped build other woodworking tool companies.
Now, contrast Sears with my experience at a place I just went to yesterday in Atlanta- Redmond and Sons Machinery (a sister store of Rockler). They carried a range of machinery that would make you wet your pants if all you've ever been exposed to is Sears, Lowes and Home Depot. Strangely, however, the prices were still reasonable, and the staff knew exactly what they were selling. What's more is you could tell that every tool they sold was rock solid. They didn't carry anything that looked like it might break down in a year or two. No Ryobi, no Black and Decker, no Craftsman. I had that feeling I once had as a kid when, after years of my parents bringing me to Sears/Target/Wal-Mart/Penney's for BMX bikes then they finally bring me to a reputable bike store and I saw the GT's, Diamon Backs and Mongooses. It was a whole new world.
Now I've always read the suggestion that people should 'pick up a unisaw locally on the cheap' and recognize whole heartedly that many towns simply do not have such a great secondary tool market. My own that I currently live in (Columbus, GA) surely doesn't. But odds are every town in the US is probably a few hours drive at most to a larger city that does have the great deals and great stores. If you've settled on Sears you'd kick yourself in the butt later if you ever walked into a dedicated machinery/woodworking store and saw some of the things you can get. That's the experience I had with Sear's mid-range tools just compared with my local Lowes and Home Depot. After visiting Redmonds in Atlanta I can confidently say anyone would regret buying even the larger power tools from Sears if they took the time to visit a real dedicated machinery/woodworking store in a larger city.
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