hvlp

[Swampbug]

from HF. . .any comments on this one;

[toolman946 via CraftKB.com]

sprayers, although the topic is not new and has been written about extensively. They used to be quite expensive but have considerably come down in price in the last 5 years.From everything I've read, a decent HVLP system can be had for about $200. Inexpensive units, like the HF one you indicated, may be more frustrating then they're worth. Especially if you intend to spray waterborne finishes. Units like this one tend to have an underpowered turbine and low quality spray gun... usually with a tip that's not suitable for waterborne finishes.

I'm usually a big fan of inexpensive tools that can be made more useful by "tweaking" them past their short comings. But I've had a fair bit of experience with sprayers (good and bad) and they're not the type of tool that can usually be improved upon. There's many ways to build a project "on the cheap" (hand saw instead of a power saw... chisels and hand planes instead of a router) and a finish can be applied by hand or brush that, with a bit more time and elbow grease, will be satisfactory. Spraying offers many advantages, including speed, but cheap spray equipment can be disappointing... and time consuming.

In my humble opinion, you're better off to save up a few more shekels and invest in a unit that will perform better "right out of the box".

Cheers

[B A R R Y]

Why yes... I can comment.

First, a quick background. I own that exact unit and an $800 Fuji 4 stage setup and have used both extensively. The HVLP in your link is one of the few items from HF I've been happy buying, ever!

Pros on the HF unit:

- Cheap

- Very easy to use (non-adjustable)

- Lightweight

- Easy to clean

- Good to spectacular results are possible

- Viscosity cup included

- HVLP systems have zero problems due to water and oil in the air line

- No large and expensive compressor needed

- Very portable and easy to store

- Plastic gun is durable and impervious to finishes

Cons:

- Short, non-extendable hose

- few adjustments (see "easy to use!")

- Loud, especially as the turbine is close by with the short hose

- Hose sometimes pops off, as it's a friction fit

- I haven't seen a source for spare parts

- Only one tip setup available (see "easy to use")

- Many gun parts not replaceable (see "easy to use" )

- No filter on pickup tube, so filtering the finish before pouring it into the cub is extra important.

The HF unit actually works great for anything where the user can control the viscosity of the finish. The user MUST get the finish into a narrow range, as the gun isn't really adjustable, and no other tip/needle setups are available. This ranges from really easy to do with nitrocellulose lacquer and dye stain, to virtually impossible with many waterborne products and latex paints. Most phenolic and polyurethane varnishes, as well as shellac, will fall somewhere in between on the "thinability" scale.

For the user who prefers easily thinned products, and is willing to experiment a bit with the included viscosity cup, scrap stock, and a notebook, this is not a problem. Due to the warm air in an HVLP system, different thinners may be required than would be used brushing, to retard drying times.

The extra money spent on the high-end unit allows one to spray all kinds of finishes (with extra $75 gun setups), add different feeds (high-capacity pressure pots, gravity, mini-cups), get replacement parts, greatly extend the hose, etc...

I still use my HF unit for spraying lighter weight materials like dyes, stains, Olympic Maximum oil, and deck stains.

The bottom line:

_Once the product is in the proper viscosity range_, I can lay down just as good a finish with the $69 unit, as I can with the expensive system. Both have valuable places in my shop.

If you never go outside the capabilities of the HF kit, it may be the only HVLP unit you will ever need. If your favorite finish can't thinned to the proper range, it will be useless.

Noting that an extra needle/tip setup for the "pro" unit costs more than the entire HF kit, I'll probably buy another one if this one bites it.

Users who think they can dump some finish into a gun and their finishing problems are over will be disappointed with any spray rig, at any price.

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[Twayne]

[Michael Faurot]

finishing expert and certainly not an expert at spraying finishes. However I can say I've been pleased with the results I've had using my unit. I've used it to spray several types of finishes and some laytex paint. Regarding finishes, I've used my HVLP unit to spray plain shellac and shellac I've tinted with dyes with very good results. I've also use the unit to spray Miniwax's Polyshades product. I've never been able to get the results I wanted with either shellac or Polyshades by brushing or wiping, but when I spray them with the cheap Harbor Freight HVLP unit, I get results I like.

[1]:

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

Thanks!

[Swampbug]

WOW! Thanks. . .I will see if I can locate the mag article you alluded to.

[Swampbug]

Thanks. . .I had not seen that one(1) from HF. I had a Wagner airless and got tired of cleaning so much for so little for nuthing extra. I thought I would try an HVLP. I don't mind cleaning if the thing at least works.

[toolman946 via CraftKB.com]

Great post, Barry. We agree on point, but I have a couple of comments 'cuz my conclusion from your post is that you'd recommend the HF sprayer to this newbie.

With your knowledge and skill level, you could probably lay down a professional finish with a curly stray taped to a turkey baster!

Right on again. That's one reason why I suggested against the HF turbine system mentioned by the OP and recommended a decent unit at about $200.00. Without extensive experience and knowledge (especially tweaking viscosity and additives to enhance flowability) there's no way a newbie will create an acceptable finish with this cheapo. And as you confirmed, waterborne finishes won't work. Frustration high... satisfaction low! The thing will sit in the corner. Money wasted.

I'm all for economy but the more important aspect is value and this unit doesn't have it.

Although I regularly use a $4,000.00 arc welder... I can still lay down a good, solid weld with jumper cables and a battery. But I wouldn't recommend that to a beginner.

Just one man's opinion, though.

I enjoyed you comments.

Cheers

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

The HF HVLP was my first spray rig, except for a Badger airbrush that ran on canned air.

All of the knowledge I posted to properly use the cheap HVLP came from the instruction manual included in the box, rec.woodworking, and Jeff Jewitt's books.

As a beginner, I felt that the lack of adjustments and needle choices made it easier to learn. Woodcraft and Rockler actually sell the identical tool for $100.

[Michael Faurot]

You will need to clean out the gun after every use, but it's not too bad. All the parts in the gun are made of some type of metal so it's actually of decent quality.

The only problem I've had with the thing is the hose that connects the gun to the turbine/blower. The hose and the connections are all plastic. At least once a session, I have the hose come loose from either the gun or the turbine. Fortunately it doesn't require any tools to put things back together. It is an annoyance, but usually about the time that happens is after I've been at it for 30 minutes or more and I typically need a break anyway. :)

One other tip, if you should decide to get one of these units in particular... The turbine is designed to be carried around with you via a shoulder strap. I found that the default length of hose going from the turbine to the gun was too long, and I'd frequently step on or trip on the hose as I was moving around. So I cut the hose in half and eliminated that situation.

[toolman946 via CraftKB.com]

If you'd said that the instructions alone had taught you the alchemy skills necessary to create a decent finish with a low quality unit, such as this one being discussed, then I'd recommend it too. But that's not the case. I doubt that you studied the chemistry (and physics) of applying finishes before choosing to buy a cheap gun and trying to make it work with your accumulated knowledge. All the information and advice out there, and in Jeweitt's books, recommend buying decent equipment.

And if the cheap gun is easily made effective by tweaking the mix, why'd you spend all that cash on the expensive one? Why not buy another... or a couple of the cheapos? You know why. "Cuz better equipment gives better results (and that includes a measure of forgiveness until one's skills develop).

It's one thing to be highly skilled and bend an inferior tool to the master's will. It's quite another to recommend an inferior tool just because you can make it work, in spite of having a pro unit, too.

That's my last word on this.

Cheers

[Tanus]

Barry, I think he's got a point. From what I've read of your experience, you're right up there.

I don't have HVLP, and I will be in the market for one in the future. I've bought cheap products before and paid twice for them. In this argument, I'd lean towards a more forgiving piece of machinery that will give me a decent finish without having to do endless tweaks.

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

Because the cheapie can't spray some of the products I apply with the Fuji. The cheapie dosen't have a long enough hose to spray millwork, and it can't be extended. There's no pressure pot for the cheapie.

FWIW, the $200 HVLP can't apply half of the products the that the Fuji can.

Thanks!

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

I totally agree, but when I bought that unit I wasn't. That sucker GOT me to where I am.

I _still_ use it!

So would I.

However...

The HF unit sprays NC lacquer, shellac, and your typical oil based polyurethane GREAT after taking 10 minutes to understand the viscosity cup in the box ! I thought I mentioned that if you use these products, this tool will work. If not, it won't.

What I mentioned aren't "tweaks", I was simply forced to thin the finish properly and occasionally use a different thinner. Spray finishing 101! The wrong viscosity and drying time will also cause issues with my Fuji rig, or my Critter, or my Badger airbrush.. .

There were NO magic additives. There are NO other "tweaks"! The unit has adjustments for spray pattern and fluid feed. That's it!

All of this stuff is mentioned in "Troubleshooting" in Jewitt's and Flexner's books, as well as most every magazine article about spray finishing.

I'm going to try full strength Ultrastar this week, as I've never tried it in the HF gun. I'll post my results.

[Mike Marlow]

I usually trim replies more than I trimmed this one. I'm leaving Barry's comments in ahead of yours, because I'm curious to know how you got to the point of your comments, from anything Barry said. I do believe you went off on a rant over something that was never said.

[Mike Marlow]

Nothwithstanding pure junk, you are setting yourself up for disappointment if you believe you can count on the equipment to deliver a decent finish. Granted, experienced painters can turn out good work with lesser equipment, but the inverse is not true. Buying great equipment is not going to make you a good sprayer. Go back and re-read Barry's comments. What he has posted in this thread is dead on. If you don't take the time to learn about viscosity and some of the other basics - and invest in some trial and error, the best equipment in the world is not going to make you a good painter. Those basics apply to the good gear as much as they do to the lesser gear.

[Tanus]

I'm not setting myself up for anything of the kind. You can't see anywhere in my post where I said that "you can count on the equipment to deliver a decent finish. "

What I said was, I was tired of buying equipment by price alone. With some exceptions, you get what you pay for. And what I implied, and I feel that was pretty clear, was that I was willing to pay more to get higher quality stuff.

I've never bought anything in my life without taking it home and experimenting with it. But thanks for the advice.

[nailshooter41]

Because you buy the better equipment for two reasons: You have the extra $600 to $1000 to put in the machine if you find you need to. Why would you need a "better machine? Flexibility of finish application, a better quality gun, and the ability to purchase other aircaps for the same gun. The second would be reliability. I do not expect to be able to use the HF gun all day and all night as needed, several times a week if needed without any fear of failure. It is a $69 unit. If it fails in the garage while you are spraying a project, it would truly suck. But if your HVLP system failed while you were spraying precat lacquer, that would be a tragedy.

My Fuji, with all the aircaps, the extra whip, extra filiters, and a second gun dedicated to spraying dye cost me around $1400. I paid that money for the sake of the Fuji reputation as well as their outstanding product and tech support.

Baloney. I have been finishing my own projects on my remodels and repairs for years. I also refinish custom doors, conference tables, etc. A crappy finish is a crappy finish. I have seen HVLP finishes that look like they were put in with a sheetrock texture gun that were put on with a very nice Graco system. I have seen brush finishes that look sprayed (not layed down by me, though).

You missed it. Barry never said it was an inferior tool. In fact, he said he liked it enough he would probably buy another if his current machine quit. Read carefully... he and others have said it is a good machine for a lot of finishes, not all finishes. No machine is good out of the box for all finishes without tweaking and adjustment of materials and hardware. The same could be said for my Fuji HVLP or my Graco airless; they won't spray everything without additional aircaps, tips, material modifications, etc.

You should know too, that thinning is part of most finishes with HVLP. What the additional stages (or turbine impellors) allow you to do is to shoot less viscuous finishes without thinning. They DO NOT lay down a better finish simply because they have more stages.

I don't know the difference, but one of those little HFs has a two stage turbine, and the other has a single stage. I have seen some nice finish work put down with those things by non professionals.

And there is nothing wrong with a quality beginner machine. If it winds up being all you need and all you want then you are just that much better off.

Robert