Humility

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It seems I didn't write it well enough to get my point across. I'll rewrite it:
After a point, additional schooling just wastes a person's time.
For the type that work with their hands, it's sometimes better to get out of the classroom and in to the shop where they can make mistakes and actually engage in learning.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

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On 1/31/2015 4:07 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

As in, experience is what you get by working and making mistakes because you don't have the experience<g>
Think "book smart."
It's like a lawyer after passing the bar exam. Long on the tools to do the job but no experience doing the job.
The doctor who got his degree yesterday is NOT going to be my doctor. Give him a year or two in residency - hopefully in a busy urban ER or in his/her clinical specialty and you've got something.
I can't think of a profession or career where OJT doesn't make all the difference in the finished product.
If you speak frankly (or rather if they will speak frankly with you) most college professors will acknowledge that the college degree today is not much more than the high school diploma of decades ago.
An extra two years of schooling in community college? Sure, why not. Two additional years of child care. Local community college established (via a very nice person) a fund that would cover ALL tuition for two years at the local community college. The only criteria was graduation from a local high school (Not GED or alternative day care <g>) with a, I think, "C" average.
Nice huh? Help them out, get them working, get away from the sense of entitlement?
You should have heard the bitching and moaning by a number of ingrates! "Why the hell should I have to pay for my books and activity fees, etc.?"
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On 1/31/2015 5:35 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

No where is this more evident that in chemistry/analytical laboratory situations.
When I graduated I went to work for a company in southern Michigan. We hired GOOD high school graduates for the technician positions in the lab. By the time I retired, we would not look at a high school graduate.
There were two reasons. One the high school grand could pass the standardized test but did not have the knowledge to be trained for the technicians positions.
The second reason was that from a Government Regulatory aspect it was much easier to convince an regulatory person that the person had the proper training if we started with a person with a BS or MS degree, and then trained; them rather than saying we started with a high school graduate.
Did it make any difference, I have tried to train people that had a college "Education" that could not comprehend what they read, at least could not translate what they read in the steps necessary to do the job.
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On 1/31/2015 4:50 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:

Sure. Much less wriggle room in the sciences. Hard to bullshit your way through the workplace there.
Funny, one my "sources" is #1 daughter, a chemistry prof. She was in AP courses from 6th grade on. As a junior she wasooking for her undergrad school she did an overnighter at Knox College - highly rated in the sciences. Participated in a study group of sophomore chem students that night. She was feeding them all the answers.
When she went off to undergrad at St Olaf in MN, she basically chilled the first three semesters before having to get back into the grind. Finished there with a double major Biology & Chemistry. Then off to the U of MN and her PhD in Biochemistry.
The kids that she now teaches are good kids but ill-prepared for someone like her. Would you believe "helicopter parents" in college?
"Look, Julie's grades are slipping. You realize that if she fails your course, she will be in danger of losing her scholarship?"
Oh well, says my daughter. If Julie doesn't attend class and start applying herself, she probably will lose the scholarship but it's not all bad, she won't need it when she flunks out."
Amazing!

My background is law enforcement and I saw and still see, although retired, the "new breed" coming up with degrees. Amazing what thought processes some of them have. Fresh out of the academy and they are wondering why they have to work patrol instead of an immediate promotion to Lt or department head - "I do have a degree you know!"
The first six months they spend out on the street with a FTO and then working those same streets on their own is the best education they will ever get - if they accept it as such. They soon realize that the degree means little without the street experience and trial by fire. If they don't learn it, they leave; typically after getting their butt kicked a couple three times.
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On 1/31/2015 5:07 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

OK, I don't think any education is wasted but agree, at some point you do have to change priorities and earn your way through life.
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On 1/31/2015 3:07 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

I think the dentist I recently visited took your advice.
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I was kinda comforted by the fact that my surgeon has 15 years experience and does 380 bypasses a year. I really didn't want to be one of his learning cadavers. ;-)
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On 1/31/2015 8:16 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

I have never gone to a doctor or dentist that know their subject. The only thing they will admit to is that they are practicing to be a doctor or dentist
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On Sat, 31 Jan 2015 21:01:04 -0500, Keith Nuttle

That may be all they're licensed to do by the government. If only the government were as competent...
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On 1/30/2015 11:59 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

This is true, there is the over qualification tag that can hold an over educated person back. It would be better if the education after HS focused on physical trade skills to those that are going to actually do that for a living. Simply put, college is not for every body and if every one is offered a free college education you are going to see "sanitation engineers" riding on the back of the garbage truck collecting your trash every week.
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"Leon" wrote: Lew Hodgett wrote:
Leon wrote:

------------------------------------------------ Lew Hodgett wrote:

------------------------------------------------- "Leon" wrote:

-------------------------------------------------- Lew Hodgett wrote:
Why is that? ---------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------ You're not old enough to remember the GI Bill offered to vets returning from WWII.
It was attacked as being a gov't handout; however, in the end it turned out to be the best investment the gov't ever made.
It developed a generation of trained college graduates, most of them were the first in the their family to graduate, that drove the last half of the 20th century.
The increase in income taxes paid the direct cost of the program and the increase in an educated work force put us on the moon.
This proposed program is aimed at the community college programs.
Programs that are 2 years aimed at directly providing qualified people to staff the local market opportunities.
The program is optional. No one is holding a gun to some ones head to sign up.
Rather it provides a means to attend a community college and learn a skill set that is needed in the local area.
It sets the hook to get a degree by requiring that a 2.5 GPA is maintained to qualify.
Everybody wins on this one including the skeptics who are convinced that gov't is a waste.
Yes, the gov't is not the most efficient way of doing some things, but the do provide the best way some other things.
Things that the private sector either can not or will not provide.
Even Barry Goldwater recognized that gov't provides a unique service the private sector doesn't provide.
Only took him about 3-4 terms to gain that perspective.
Lew
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On 1/31/2015 5:26 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

But with all due respect, that was not a time of entitlement like it is now and the government was not as out of control as it is now.
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Leon wrote:

------------------------------------------------ Lew Hodgett wrote:

------------------------------------------------- "Leon" wrote:

-------------------------------------------------- Lew Hodgett wrote:
Why is that? --------------------------------------------------- "Leon" wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------ "Leon" wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------- Pray tell what the devil arre you talking about?
Lew
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On Sun, 1 Feb 2015 14:26:50 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"

$18T debt. 50% of kids on public assistance. The wholesale shredding of the Constitution. ...just a few examples.
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On 2/1/2015 6:29 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

College police forces with MRAPS; NSA sucking up your privacy; license plate readers tracking your locations; SWAT teams raiding Mom & Pop farms and homes, shooting the old folks dogs, for selling raw milk or planting vegetables in the front yard; LEO 'asset forfeiture' programs, nothing more than a license to steal with no crime committed; TSA stealing from your luggage, and harassing 80 year old ladies in wheel chairs; Homes invasions by LEO with no knock warrants, without regard to having the correct address...
...ad infinitum.
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Just GladI'm old as it's like they're try to turn this country into a beehive.
Mike M
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On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:58:26 -0800, Mike M

Nah, bees produce something useful.
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"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

---------------------------------------------------------- "Swingman" wrote:

--------------------------------------------------- There is an old adage in the debate business.
When you have the facts, use them.
When you don't have the facts, dig up all the crap you can, throw it up on the wall and see if something will stick.
Lots of crap got tossed up on the wall, but nothing stuck.
Hint: Paranoia doesn't count.
Lew
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On Tue, 3 Feb 2015 16:58:15 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"

There is another; "if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bullshit."

.End of bullshit

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On 2/3/2015 7:58 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

--
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
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