How to re-glue joints?

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I am beginning to refinish a set of chairs and all of the joints need re-glued. They appear to have been glued with typical yellow glue. Will yellow glue adhere to itself? I can sand the joints but it is unlikely that I will be able to remove the old stuff as it is soaked in. I would like this glue job to last for quite a while. Any tips?
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The typical approach in this situation would be epoxy. It will stick to anything like old glue, wood, etc. It also has gap filling ability and yellow wood glue requires direct surface contact of mated parts and in old jopints that isn't always a given.

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What he said. Clean the parts and joints to be reattached well, then try the 20 minute stuff from the hobby store.
You still need to let it set up overnight, but it will stay put in an hour or so.
Robert
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What he said. Clean the parts and joints to be reattached well, then try the 20 minute stuff from the hobby store.
You still need to let it set up overnight, but it will stay put in an hour or so. -------------------------------------------- Agreed except I have trouble with the hobby shop stuff when you can get the real stuff for the same money.
Take a look:
http://www.systemthree.com/p_st_quikfair.asp
It's known as fairing putty, but I glued a lot of things together with fairing putty.
Glue it up, forget it for 24 hours.
Produces a strong like bull joint.
Other than I have used a lot of System 3 material, have no interest in them.
Lew
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One other thing to be aware of while cleaning the old joint...
I've used carpenter's glue as mold release agent when laying up epoxy parts.
So clean it up real good!
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I wouldn't have thought about using faring putty. Honestly, I have only seen it in use (a friend of mine has a fiberglass business) and have never used it myself.
The stuff I use is from these guys:
http://www.bsi-inc.com
I couldn't find their big page, but the one listed above has a starting look at their products. If you haven't used their CA glues, they are outstanding.
Their big home page has some great reviews on their products by Cessna and a couple of other heavy hitters. I did find this, though:
http://tinyurl.com/maykuw
Their products seem to work well, store well, and they also seem to hold as well as the Sys 3 products. I used to buy only Sys 3 and was really faithful to the brand, but damn.... they got so pricey I went looking for alternatives. I *love* epoxy for repairs so occasionally I wind up using a lot of it.
The Smith adhesives are about 30 - 40% less $$ than the West products and <seem> to have a longer shelf life. These are really important factors to me as I might have some left over that will sit on the shelf for a few months.
I had a kitchen that I was giving a facelift a few years ago. *All* the drawers in the kitchen were coming apart. I wanted to put in miter cut glue blocks inside the drawer boxes, glued and pinned, but that was nixed by the owner because of appearance. I gave a couple of options that were similarly unacceptable.
In the end, I offered no warranty on the repair but told them I would "do what I could" to save their old drawers. So I broke apart the half blind joints and dadoes and filled in the joints with an injector loaded with the 20 minute stuff. Clamped each drawer for about 2 hours, then mixed up more and did another group of drawers, easily working my way through the whole kitchen of about 20 - 25 drawers in a day while doing other things.
They have held under rigorous use in that well used family kitchen for a few years with no sign of the joints loosening. That is now the way I repair all drawers since it leaves me with no finishing to do after the repair, no worries about gap filling, no "creep" after a short clamping and if there is some seepage it is sandable to remove it.
I am putting the BS epoxy to another test now. I am making a set of kitchen knives and as a test I am using the 20 minute stuff on the first test model to see how well it will take the hard use in the kitchen (by me!) and the exposure to detergents, heat and abrasion from cleaning as well as acids etc. from food. We'll see.....
What I might do to make really sure this stuff is good is put the dishwasher on low heat and run a block of wood with a piece of metal epoxied on it for a few cycles. The boys on the knife making forum did that in "Glue Wars II", and it sure separated the wanna be adhesives from the good stuff.
For anyone that wants to know which of the 8 "professional grade" epoxies that were tested that won, it was a tie between two LocTite products. They were tested for abrasion resistance, heat resistance, adhesion to dissimilar materials, shear resistance, water proofing, and elasticity all on wood to metal joints.
The winners? Loctite 120HP and Loctite PC7.
Neither of them sold locally.... ;^(
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Never, never, *NEVER* run wood handled knives through a dishwasher! The very thought makes me shudder.
When I lived in Mexico, I used to go to the supermarket with my wife. The market was more like a department store with a food section so I'd browse while she shopped.
One item of interest was knives...they had many styles/sizes at very inexpensive prices and I wound up with numerous. They weren't great knives but weren't bad either except for the handles on most - mahogany but rough and crude.
After returning to the US, the wife was away for a while so decided to replace the handles as a pastime. Drilled out the rivets, bought a few blocks of lignum vitae, brass rivets and a step drill for same. After cutting the blocks into appropriately sized blanks, the blanks were epoxied and riveted to the tang. Some tangs were full, others partial. After shaping, the handles were finished with polyurethane. That was 16 years ago and all knives are pristine (or close to it) after frequent use.
The knives are cleaned with a soft brush and a bit of detergent, wiped dry and stood upright or at an angle for a while so that any remaining water runs downward, then stored in a knife rack in a drawer.
The reason I used epoxy was to keep water from working down between tang and wood. I don't know how well epoxy without rivets would work; personally, I *like* rivets :)
--

dadiOH
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wrote:

Actually it all depends on the finish. I have been washing a set of Case steak knives "with wood handles" in the dish washer for the last 29 years. No worse for wear. The occasional Chicago knife has faired pretty well when one was accisnetally put in the DW.
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Leon wrote:

I'm guessing you've had steak at least once a year, right? If so, what is the miracle finish on the handles, fused porcelain?

You just couldn't hear its cry of anguish over the dishwasher noise. I'm surprised it didn't run away from home :)
--

dadiOH
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I'll bet it's something like Buck's Dymondwood, which is a series of wood layers bonded under huge amounts of pressure with resin to make it wood colored resin.

LMAO!! No kidding!
And dadiOH, I tried the link I posted and it did indeed not work. But if you are interested, do a normal Google web search and paste this in:
bladeforums.com glue wars II
It will come up with the Glue Wars 2 thread, and directly underneath, the original Glue Wars thread. You will see a lot of favorites there and be surprised at how badly they perform (including an old favorite of mine for 25 years, JB Weld).
You will also be surprised at how much time, effort and care he puts into his tests.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Or maybe rag micarta...I've seen it made to look wood-like. ___________

Thanks!
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dadiOH
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OK... alright... calm down.... nothing to see here.... ;^)
Read carefully; I never said I would run one of my knives through the dishwasher. Heresy!
Since cooking is one of my hobbies, I have a few hundred dollars invested in cutlery. Never, ever, has any one of my knives seen the inside of a dishwasher, regardless of handle material. The chemicals and heat can easily damage the fine edge of a knife as well as pit the surface of the blade.
As a sidebar, I was so pissed off when I saw one of my 8" hollow ground fine edge chef's knives in the sink (that's right... in the sink sitting on the bottom of it) I went out and bought my SO her own 6" chef's knife. She is no longer tempted to touch one of my slicers, with the caveat she can do what ever she pleases with hers with no comment from me.

I don't know if this link will work, but if it doesn't, can use Google to search Bladeforums.com, using "Glue Wars II" as your search. This might work, and has a link to Glue Wars 1 and 3 as well.
http://tinyurl.com/lbk5su
As with all things pedantic here, the debate is hot over there on whether or not pins or any other kind of mechanical fasteners are needed with today's adhesives.
If you can get the link to work, go to the Glue Wars II link and you will see (as referenced above) pieces of wood glued with different epoxies to a piece of metal and then put in the tortuous dishwasher for exposure. The object was to see which adhesive failed first.
Since they established the baseline in their own experiments, I was thinking I could check my own epoxy favorite against their test results. This would also give me a look at how well my home wood stabilization method worked out. I put different species of wood cut into knife scale sizes in a vacuum tight container and pulled 26" on them until the absorbed enough poly resins to be significantly heavier than water. I used a set of these scales to make my first 4" utility paring knife.
After using the test knife in the kitchen for a few months, it still looks perfect. But I am wondering how the poly impregnation will fare if it goes into the dishwasher to accelerate the wear to simulate a few years of use.
No knives will be harmed in the testing of these adhesives. ;^)
However, that doesn't diminish the value of your post, nor the description of the fun project you made out of rehandling the old knives. Good advice on cleaning and handling them, too.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Oh, OK. In your OP you mentioned, "exposure to detergents, heat and abrasion" and my overactive mind equated that with "dishwasher" and I felt duty bound to try to save the poor helpless knife.
_______________

Nope
I will ______________

I'll rest easy tonight, pard :)
--

dadiOH
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"dadiOH" wrote:

Time to build a knife rack maybe?<G>
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

I did. It's in a drawer. It's in a drawer because it holds 19 knives, 1 large fork and a cleaver and would occupy too much counter space.
http://mysite.verizon.net/xico/pix/kniferack1.JPG
There's another cleaver in the drawer too, a big one, bought it post rack to chop up beef bones should the need ever arise. No need has yet arisen, if it does I'll have to build something more sturdy than the counter top to chop on :)
--

dadiOH
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Why would you store your knives cutting side down? Or am I seeing it wrong?
Luigi
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Basic safety!
What if drawer is open, you have your hand over it, and another person or falling jar/can knocks your hand down or you fall and put your hand out to catch yourself. I can think of more scenarios. Sounds rare, but it's not.
nb
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"dadiOH" wrote:

Where do you keep your steel?
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

Hell, man, I'm 76. Oh...you mean *sharpening* steel :)
I always wanted one, never got around to getting one, kinda late in the game now. I use a small stone that is in a utility drawer.
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As someone who built and flew a lot of model planes in my misspent youth, web site brought a smile to my face.
SFWIW:
There are only 3-4 manufacturers of epoxy base resin (Part A) world wide.
Shell, Dow, Ciba and maybe another one.
The magic is with the formulators that manufacture the hardeners (Part B) of which there are hundreds worldwide.
Given the above, a major cost of epoxy is in the packaging.
When I buy epoxy, I buy 500# (55 gal drum) of "A" and 120# (3-40# pail (5 gal)) which means I get a very competitive price.
If you check the price of a gallon jug of "A" along with a quart of "B" for a 4:1 mix, think the sticker shock should be much less than buying smaller quantities.
As far as fairing pitty is concerned, I make my own which allows me to match the consistancy to the task.
Check around for an industrial chemical distributor and ask if they sell Dicaperl, HP-500.
It is perlite mined in Colorado, is sold in 30# bags (4 cubic ft) for less than $25 here in SoCal.
One bag will give you enough filler for probably at least 5-10 years.

Perfect application for fairing putty.
Break joint apart, butter with fairing putty, reassemble, clamp lightly, then remove ooze with a stick and get a beer.
Sometimes you can wait till putty is set "green", then trim away excess with a sharp knife rather than removing ooze while wet. Depends on the operater.

I figured that since I was building a "blue water" sail boat, of which several hundred had already been built and successfully sailed using polyester resin, boat building epoxy was going to do just fine.
BTW, same formulation used to build wind turbine blades someplace in Texas.
Have fun
Lew
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