How much runout on TS is too much

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My latest project requires me to rip some 1 1/2" Maple so I deicded to check blade alignment.
I cobbled together a jig similar to this http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjig.html to check my setup
My alignment, which I think is OK, is 0.001". Not bad considering I used this method to align my blade http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jsp?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/1161878021156.xml&catref=wd146 (whoever came up with that technique is a genius)
The runout measuered on the body of the blade is 0.003". I think this is too much but it could be the 'silver' coating on the Avanti blade I just bought.
Is 0.001" alignment close enough? Is 0.003" blade runout too much? Is it OK to have the dial indicator angled so the measurement can be taken closer to the table or does it need to be 90deg? (as seen here, but not my site)
http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/dial_indicator.jpg
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When I get home I'm going to make some popcorn and ice my favorite adult beverage to sustain me while the results come in on this one.
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You're right Ed, very interesting (entertaining?) thread this has turned out to be...
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Yep, Ed's been around long enough to see this happen dozens of times.

helped you. That's all I wanted to do - lend some of my expertise to help you out. I didn't try to sell you anything. I didn't say anything that I didn't believe to be absolutely true. I didn't say anything with the intent to insult anybody. But, this happens in virtually every single thread that I offer technical advice in. And, it's usually instigated by the same group of people (at one point or another, most of them chimed in on this thread).
I hope you find your dial indicator useful and a lot easier than a bevel blade attached to the miter bar ;-). Don't let the ignorant hecklers discourage you from using your brain. Thinking people can be real woodworkers - they just have to endure a lot of taunting and heckling.
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner
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RayV wrote:

How do test rips look?
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Hard to tell, I went looking for a decent combination blade over the weekend but couldn't find one. The Avanti (50T $30) blade cuts right through Maple but leaves hatchet marks. I will stop at the Lumberyard today and see what they have, I will probably end up ordering one of these: http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/category_2_Woodworker_II.html
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RayV wrote:

I love my WWII's, but a 24T rip blade is easier to use on thicker stock. When I have more than a few rips to do, I take the time to install the rip blade.
I've had Freud, CMT, and Ridge Carbide rip blades that I liked.
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wrote:

You can typically rule the blade out with that one but be sure to get the "regular kerf" blade.
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Leon, Why do you recommend "regular kerf"? (I presume this is rather than "thin" kerf.) I have been told that one should not use a thin kerf blade on a 3hp cabinet saw but don't know if this is bs or what. Best, David
wrote:

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I used thin kerf for years because they cut so "fast". I was not happy with the cuts. They were never quite true enough for me and even with a stiffener which limited the depth of cut I was not happy. In 1989 I talked to my local tool dealer and blade sharpener. They still sharpen blades but do not sell tools. I asked what he recommended for a good combination blade. He recommended a Systematic combo "Regular Kerf". He told me, and I agree with that statement to this day that a "good quality and sharp" regular kerf blade will cut just as smoothly and effortlessly as any thin kerf blade. Plus you get flat bevels, miters, and compound bevel cuts. At the time I was using a 1 hp Craftsman TS and never again put a thin kerf blade on my saw. About 8 years ago I up graded to a 3 hp cabinet saw and immediately upgraded to the Forrest WWII regular kerf 40 tooth blade. A few years ago I bought another Forrest WWII to have on hand while Forrest resharpens the other. I also strongly recommend Forrest for resharpening. They can retune the blade if necessary when they resharpen it. If you are buying a cheap blade, a thin kerf may be the better choice but if you have your sat properly set up and want dead flat cuts a "Quality" regular kerf blade is the way to go. Thin kerf makes it easier for a low powered saw cut through hard woods. A sharp good quality regular kerf blade can do this also.
As for why you should not use a thin kerf blade on a 3hp saw, probably because the blade will not deliver the precision that a better quality saw is capable of delivering.
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http://www.woodmagazine.com/wood/story.jsp?storyid=/templatedata/wood/story/data/1161878021156.xml&catref=wd146
Not being an avid woodworker or someone with much time using a table saw... I'm guessing that unless this adversely affects the chances of a kickback, it shouldn't cause any real problems...
Just thinking out loud - How many people do you know that measure wood to .001" or so?
But I'm here to learn so I'll wait for the experts to answer.
Regards, Joe Agro, Jr. (800) 871-5022 01.908.542.0244 Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
V8013-R
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wrote in message

Good point, but to answer the question, NO ONE does that. However the closer to perfect you get the blade to being parallel to the fence or perpendicular to the miter slot the less sanding you have to do. Typically I NEVER have to sand a ripped or mitered cut.
You do not need fancy measuring equipment to set the saw up to make cuts like that. For some the measuring equipment makes it easier. For some it is an extra and unnecessary step. Results will tell you if the saw is set up right or not.
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wrote in message

(raising hand in a grade school manner...) I do.
I will be the first to admit that I go overboard, but since I work to .0001 or so during the day, going to a .001 or so, doesn't seem like that big of a stretch.

Absolutely...if you don't get the machine accurate, the part can NOT be accurate without fiddling with something somewhere....easier to do it on the first operation, I think.

Also very right...the finish of the ripped board is what counts...assuming that you'll make an adjustment if the size is off, if the finish is there, that's most of the battle.
Mike
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I think Jow was refering to ripping a board to width 3" +, - .001" If you are doing "that", don't remeasure today's rip tomorrow. :~)
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Yeah, rilly.
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Joe AutoDrill wrote:

When fitting joints with a hand plane, it's fairly easy to take off a thou or two at a time. It's not so much measured as felt though...your fingertips can feel .003" fairly easily, it's roughly the thickness of a piece of paper.
Chris
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"RayV" wrote in message

Your measurements are only as accurate as the instrument you used to do the measuring.

If you mean the blade aligned to the miter slot, that real good. + .005 and it's generally considered that you have problems that need to be addressed
Are you sure that indeed measured "blade runout"/warp/flatness, and your measurement does not arbor or flange runout also?
There is a specific procedure for checking the flatness of a blade with that type of instrument:
With the instrument, find and mark the high spot on the blade; loosen the nut and turn the blade 1/2 turn on the arbor; re-tighten the nut check for the high spot again; if the high spot coincides with the marked spot, then the it's due to blade warp, if not, then it's arbor or flange runout.
Arbor and flange runout on a good table saw should be less than .001"
I'm sure you'll get a lot more responses ... :)
--
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RayV wrote:

Personally, I'd consider that just fine. Before you judge any test rip cuts, you should also ensure that your fence is parallel to the blade and the mitre slot.
Chris
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Regardless of the slight differences you see now, how does the cut look? Happy with the results? Stop fiddling. A typical Forrest blade when new is with in .001". The arbor run out on my saw when new was .0005". When I check my fence alignment I make a test cut. If there were tooth marks on the keeper side I would slightly adjust the fence on the back side away from the blade. Tooth marks on the waste side, move the back side of the fence slightly towards the blade. Yeah, you waste "a" scrap piece of wood doing this and if your saw is decent you only have to do this once every 3 or 4 years, maybe.
Regardless of what kind of measuring equipment you use to set the saw up, you have no control over the fact that most wood does not remain dead flat or straight to the extent that those tiny measurements that you tweak you saw to come in to effect. They help but often wood can warp as you cut it. Wood often will move during the cut much more than the tolerances that you are looking at and then every thing becomes a moot point.
Or wait a little while and Ed will try to sell you an aligner that may or may not help with the results of your cut.
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This is very true. Most wood just can't hold these sorts of tolerances. Even the heat generated by cutting will cause dimensional changes on the order of 0.001". But, like you said previously, we're not talking about working wood to within a few thousandths of an inch. We're talking about aligning a machine. The goal here is to make sure that the machine doesn't introduce additional problems (beyond those inherent in the wood). You want to avoid having to clean-up or re-work something that the machine could have done correctly to begin with.
Wood does change dimensionally over time. So, the wise and skillful woodworker will not to allow a lot of time between cutting and fitting parts together. In other words, don't cut out all the parts one day and then try to assemble them on another day - especially if you expect the weather to change. Also, if you notice a board warping or twisting during a rip cut, it's a very significant sign that the particular piece of wood doesn't belong in your project. It was improperly dried ("case hardened") and will be nothing but trouble if you use it (reminds me of an armoire my brother made).

There's a "definite maybe" if I've ever seen one! Spoken with true conviction.
Hey! What's that sharp steel thing hanging out of my mouth? What the?!?!? Heck Leon, are you fishing again? Geez! Can't a guy offer some helpful assistance without getting trolled? I didn't suggest that he buy anything. With regard to his setup I said: "That will do the trick...". Is that what you Texas boys call the "hard sell"?
Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner
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