Help please with joint naming

[Vaughn]

Ok, not very good at remembering the names of joints, but this really has me baffled.

I assist in the teaching of year 10 and 11 pupils at a local school in the UK, and we have just started a new coarse this academic year.

We have been practising the making of Mortise and Tenon joints, we have covered the Open End, Corner, Closed End, or Blind, Haunched, and Bare-Faced types, but the teachers manual gives a small questionnaire which has brought about some debate.

The question we have a problem with is: 'There are many types of Mortise and Tenon joint, but all are referred to as .......... joints more commonly.'

We have no definitive answer for the common name for these types of joint.

Please can anyone give a reasonable answer to this question?

I have researched the web but so far only found that it is the most common of furniture joints, not that it is known commonly as a furniture joint.

may thanks for any help you can offer.

Vaughn

[Joe Barta]

I think it's a bit of an unintentional trick question. I think the author is trying to say that while there are these different types with different names, they all fall under the general category of tenoned joints. My guess is that the author is looking for "tenoned joint". Or possibly "mortise and tenon" joint.

Joe Barta

[Andy Dingley]

What on earth is a "closed end" tenon? They're blind tenons, and have been since Noah was cutting them. Nor does anyone refer to "open end" tenons either.

No wonder. If it's a UK teachers' manual, whether it's on woodworking or IT, it'll be wrong. I don't know who writes this garbage (this isn't a criticism of teachers themselves) but there's no field like it for inventing new words for things, contrary to the established practice of those who actually do the stuff day-in, day-out.

They're mortice and tenon joints. Mortice is spelled with a "c" in the UK too. They're not referred to as _anything_ commonly as no-one teaches woodwork any more. Those who do still recognise what they are just call them mortice and tenon joints.

[Teamcasa]

"Vaughn"

Dave

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services

---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **

----------------------------------------------------------

[Swingman]

If you held a gun to my head, I would have to say "housed" joints ... but please don't pull the trigger.

[David]

I answered on ABPW...probably incorrectly...

dave

[Island Boy]

Vaughn,

This is a poorly worded or trick question. Mortise and tenons are a sub-set of Traditional Joints. However, they are not commonly referred to as this. They are commonly referred to as Mortise and Tenon joints.

Regards, Shaun (Island Boy)

Vaughn wrote:

[Ba r r y]

My guesses in the other group were:

"cross grain" "slip" (vs. "lap") "interlocking" (vs. "butting)

I'm probably wrong on all of them...

Barry

[Swingman]

Maybe not ... the answer "depends", and odds are it varies depending upon where you are from (or as Charlie would more grammatically expound "from whence you spring").

Britannica:

" The Mortise and Tenon Joint. Probably evolving from the lap joint, the mortise and tenon joint is a connection of two pieces by the use of the tenon (a reduced end of one piece) fitted into the mortise (a cut hole in the second piece). The well-fitted joint can withstand more and varied stresses than the simple lap joint. Principle types of this joint include the blind or stub joint, the through joint, the open joint and the housed joint."

or, Pacific Rim:

"These may be either be lashed on to the posts or attached through a housed joint, where the horizontal member penetrates the post through a hole cut in it."

or, New Brunswick:

"Fully Housed Frame. This means the frame is constructed using a Mortise and Tenon joint. A mortise and tenon joint consists, in simple terms, of a 'tongue', (the tenon) that slots into a hole or groove (the mortise) cut in the mating piece of timber. The strength of the joint makes it ideal for use in framing and general furniture work. For a really strong joint the tenon must be a tight fit into the mortise, so care must be taken when cutting both parts of the joint. For maximum strength, the tenon width should never be more than one third the width of the timber in which it is cut."

... and every thing you want to know about mortise and tenon joinery from a civil engineering viewpoint:

[Tom Watson]

I believe that the answer they are looking for is, "Housed", although they would have to decline the joint into unlovely sub descriptions, such as "Fully Housed" and "Partially Housed", which are best left to political and social think tanks.

It would neither be the case that all mortice and tenon joints are fully housed, nor that all fully housed joints are mortice and tenons, which leaves one with a sense of loss as to a useful definition of either.

Fear not, for we WoodDorkers are not alone in the problem of nomenclature.

I have a wonderful old book called, "The Ashley Book Of Knots", which attempts to give individual names to every conceivable sort of knot.

What results is that the names are harder to remember than the process of making the knots.

Probably not what the author would have wished.

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

[Andy Dingley]

Well that's wrong for starters. The evolution is either from the English clamped joint (most likely), or possibly from the Norse open tenon, but certainly not from lap joints. For one thing the tooling needed to cut them represents a divergent trend, not an evolutionary one.

Britannica is to encyclopedias what Webster's is to dictionaries.

"less than", surely ?

[Swingman]

Yep, that's what I was thinking ... although in certain parts of the country/world "housed" means something entirely different to what you and I view it as.

[Tom Watson]

Andy:

Although I usually agree with your analyses, on this point I am forced to differ.

I believe that you have misunderstood the implied doubled entendre of those fun loving EB definitioners.

Surely, if you look closely at your lap, you will find a tenon, of sorts. It is the nature of this joint to seek out a mating lap joint, which may be called a "mortice", even in polite society.

Within this sphere of description we must certainly allow for the possibility of a "clamped joint", or an "open tenon", depending entirely on the adroitness of the individuals involved in mating the elements of the joint.

I have heard that the English often suffer from the "clamped joint" syndrome and that the Norse are famous for their much more open tenons.

In reference to "the tooling needed to cut them", I believe this to be an article of early Hebraic law which has been generalized, although by no means universalized, and is the subject of much speculation among the morticed.

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

[Anonymous]

possibly a "bridle joint" ?? ?? ??

[Vaughn]

I understand and accept all of your comments as you are far more informed about these joints than I, but as for 'no-one teaches woodwork any more', I must educate you.

Our school now runs the 'Construction BTEC first diploma', and I include a course description. Although it dose cover many other points, it is mainly concentrating on Woodwork, as the school is not yet set up to cover brickwork, and alike.

The high grading of this course is why I am so keen to ensure we give the pupils the correct answers, being some what struggling myself in this area I was hoping this would be a fairly straight forward question, but I now apologise for the obvious complexity for its answer, and thanks you for your help in this area.

Vaughn

[Vaughn]

~Many many thanks to all for your help, I think I will agree that this may be either a trick question, or more probably a very poorly written one taken form another source, by a teacher who's true area is not Woodwork.

I have found this happens often as these people get to their position in the system through teaching many subjects including some they are not very specialist at, and then have the task of having to cover the course notes for many subjects the government has put in one group so they can use less personnel to cover this problem.

I shall inform the students that as far as this group can decide the answer is Tenon, or Housed but seams to have no definitive answer as different parts of the world, or country would have different answers.

Again many thanks for all the help.

Vaughn

[Gerald Ross]

Makes you wonder if this is the teacher or the student asking, if he can't spell course.

[Swingman]

.. or "seems". Butt if could bee hit spell chequer at work.

[alexy]

ROTFLMAO! Thanks for the smiles!

[Vaughn]

Or could be that I was just using the normal miss spelling I find on all forums as I too am not Omnipotent, just human, and we all make mistakes especially when typing is not a strong point ;-) And I too am the student as I am more of a Metal work person, but I can and will learn.

But I do remember stating I ASSIST, not teach ;-)