Heating the Workshop (garage)

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Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. Natural Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. Any good electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove. TIA
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lucky4fingers wrote: | Probably a FAQ. Opinions solicited on heating a double car garage. | Natural Gas isn't available. Propane / Reddy heaters are to noisy. | Any good electric / radiant heaters? No room left for wood stove. | TIA
Vertical passive solar heating panels on/in south wall (possibly with additional panels on east wall for extra morning heat and/or west wall for extra afternoon heat) can do the job with no fuel cost.
You can estimate the possibilities for your location at: www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SolarEnergy.html
and take a look at panel type choices at www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SC_Types.html
or follow the link below to see how I build 'em.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/collectors.html
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Hey Morris did you see the show on the History channel last night? They showed this giant mirror array similar to the 'engine' you posted recently.
They were running a pipe filled with oil through the focal point (?) to boil water I think. Pretty neat.
Overall the show was pretty good but they didn't mention any drawbacks for the stuff. Most notable to me was the Prius and how great it is with no mention of the environmental impact of all the batteries.
Ray future Sierra Club member?
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RayV wrote: | Hey Morris did you see the show on the History channel last night? | They showed this giant mirror array similar to the 'engine' you | posted recently.
Don't have cable, but am familiar with heliostats (what you described). BTW, the high temperatures weren't healthy for the PVC we were working with - so we're gravitating back toward flat panel collectors. For the same footprint (shadow?) a flat panel will deliver the same amount of heat energy - but at a more useful temperature.
| They were running a pipe filled with oil through the focal point | (?) to boil water I think. Pretty neat.
It is neat - but can produce dangerously high temperatures and pressures.
| Overall the show was pretty good but they didn't mention any | drawbacks for the stuff. Most notable to me was the Prius and how | great it is with no mention of the environmental impact of all the | batteries.
The drawbacks - and the advantages - depend on the application. Most of the people trying to solve the problems haven't yet managed to absorb the notion that we need to develop technologies that provide non-consumptive (no fuel) and non-poisonous (no toxic byproducts) solutions. They're finding the paradigm shift difficult...
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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What temperatures do you see? Is it insulated? Attached or detached garage?
There are many good electric heater. Figure 1500 watts equals 5200 Btu. I can't get enough heat from a 30,000 Btu propane heater on a really cold day so figure at least 6 space heaters or 9,000 Watts or a 50 amp 240 volt service to achieve that and 50 per hour operating cost where I live. Still interested in electric?
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A bit more info would help, size of garage, insulated or not, what part of the country, dollar limit, local electric rates. Electricity is generally very expensive, some areas get a break though. If you are willing to spend some $$ you can buy a Modine Hot Dawg that runs on propane and vents the exhaust out side. Fairly quiet, just a blower fan is all you will hear. Cost to install varies with the size of heater, but if you are at all handy you may be able to install it yourself. Price for a self install, smaller unit, maybe $750-$1000. http://hot-dawg.modine.com / Greg
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For $285.00 I just installed a 5-15,000KW electric central heating system including two vents, flex ducting, digital thermostat, return air grill/filter and cables. Picked up a used central a/c unit with three strip electric heating for $100.00 in the Free ads of our newspaper. Removed the a/c A coil leaving three heating strips but only using one for 5,000 KW of heat installed the unit in the shop attic and it works great
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Insulate, insulate, insulate. The first rule of warmth is to let not the warmth out!
We've an uninsulated two car garage that's attached to the house. It gets down to about 50 at times, with two heaters (1500W and 1000W) going and the door to the house open. Fine for a car storage location, but terrible for any real use.
When we move (probably sometime in the near future) I'm going to recommend that the owners of the house take advantage of it being empty and insulate the garage. The walls have what looks to be 1/8" plywood covering the studs, so it should be easily cost effective to insulate the garage.
Puckdropper
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Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
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like someone said insulate. then try a propane infrared heater 15 to 25 thousand btu's. this worked in my insulated two car garage in the balitmore area when the temps were in the teens it was 72 inside (takes about 15 minute to get there with the 15,000 btu heater) cost is low
len
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On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 02:17:23 GMT, lucky4fingers

A quick trip to the local hardware store will turn up any number of propane heaters that will do the job with minimal noise. Take a look at the vertical type that mount near or on a wall, and have some sort of venting.
Unless your electricity is really, really cheap- then, I like the quartz heaters. They put out a lot of heat for their size. Avoid the ones that have an element that looks like it came out of a toaster with a fan behind them- they're all but useless, and kind of a fire hazard to boot. The oil-filled ones that look like radiators are marginally okay, but you have to leave them on at all times if you want it to be very useful- they take a long time to heat an area.
For my buck, propane or natural gas forced air is the way to go- it does not need to be a jet-style heater to get you a lot of heat for a minimal operating cost, and they'll heat up a shop a lot more quickly than any electric.
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"Prometheus" wrote in message

Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this winter than I've been in years!
If I'm going to get any work done in the shop this winter I guess I'm gonna have to do something related, even it's only temporary.
H2O being a by-product of combustion, do you have a problem with an increase in humidity causing rust using the propane heaters?
What specific brand/type of propane heater do you recommend?
(guaranteed ... soon as I buy one, it'll turn 90 outside and stay that way!)
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FWIW, I bought one of those double-headed propane heaters what you clamp to your portable propane tank. You do have to maintain "space" around it but it do get way hot. In fact, I'm here to tell you that it (the rear surface in this instance) will instantly melt human skin! Surprisingly painlessly.
--
Dave in Houston



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I use one of those single propane radiant heaters that clamp to a bottle. I believe it is a 16,000 BTU unit. It provides enough heat for my well insulated 16' X 24' shop. Two swinging four foot doors in the back close off with enough cracks to provide make up combustion air.
In north Mississippi, I rarely have it on for over about an hour first thing in the morning, then turn it off and the shop will stay comfortable for the rest of the day, at least until the sun goes down. On very cold, cloudy days may have to relight it a couple of times during the day.
Feel the humidity when it has been on for a while, but no worse (corrosion) than mid summer when the RH is about 95% . I've never had it sweat the windows.
Down side is there is very little turn down, i. e. it is mostly wide open or off. And better have two tanks, seems like on the coldest day when the propane fill company closed, I would run out. And you have to keep a little space around it to avoid burning you or catching combustibles on fire.
Where you are you probably wouldn't go through a 20lb. tank a year if you are insulated.
investment: Heater about $50 I think and another $50 for a couple of tanks if you don't have them.
Frank
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And Southern Illinois has been warmer than normal, proportional control swings, looks just like a ring wave.
Mark (sixoneeight) = 618
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Global warming ... (un)Like Hell!! ... I'm in Texas, and colder this winter

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2007/s2772.htm
Should bring up an article on NOAA website about 2006 being the warmest year ever since they began keeping records in 1895.
Most relevant is this fact: "The past nine years have all been among the 25 warmest years on record for the contiguous U.S., a streak which is unprecedented in the historical record."
And despite your perception about Texas being the coldest winter in years, the article also has this fact: "Five states had their warmest December on record (Minnesota, New York, Connecticut, Vermont, New Hampshire) and no state was colder than average in December." A cold spell hit my state in January. But it feels colder than it really is because of the very warm December. January is still a bit warmer than average even though we are in the 20s and teens. Hard to believe when its 20 degrees and the NW wind is blowing 20mph but its still warmer than average January weather. I have a relative in Dallas and they received ice and snow recently. But he was also talking about going for a bike ride on the weekend when it was going to be in the 50s. I have a hard time reconciling temps in the 50s with winter.
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<quote>the 2006 annual average temperature was 55 degrees F-2.2 degrees F(1.2 degrees C) above the 20th Century mean and 0.07 degrees F (0.04 degrees C) warmer than 1998. NOAA originally estimated in mid-December that the 2006 annual average temperature for the contiguous United States would likely be 2 degrees F (1.1 degrees C) above the 20th Century mean, which would have made 2006 the third warmest year on record, slightly cooler than 1998 and 1934, according to preliminary data. Further analysis of annual temperatures and an unusually warm December caused the change in records."</quote?
OK, I'm just a taxpaying dummy, but why would you compare an "average" and a "mean'?
Educate me ... could this be why they were so far off in their estimate/predictions?
Why does 80% of the paragraph deal with an "estimate" that was proven wrong, without appearing to do so?
Are these guys really using "scientific method" for their analysis, or is this really the "junk science" that it appears (and reads) to be?

<quote> These data, primarily from rural stations, have been adjusted toremove artificial effects resulting from factors such as urbanization and station and instrument changes,"<?quote>
Now just how/why do you/would you "adjust" a temperature reading on a thermometer?
You usually "adjust" something to make it fit ... a "hypothesis" perhaps?
I hope not ... those are in large part my tax dollars that paid for educating those scientists at our institutions of higher learnin......... Hmmmmmm!
"... this new data set also shows 2006 and 1998 to be the two warmest years on record for the contiguous U.S., but with 2006 slightly cooler than 1998."
... and <quote> "2006 was cooler than 1934".</quote>

"Feels" doesn't cut it, what the thermometer says does.
"Feels like" was invented by the TV/marketing folks/politicians/those with an agenda so they could use a higher/lower number to wow you/sell you something with more sensationalism.
Sorta like the accepted unit of measurement for crude oil is "barrels". That is until it's spilled, then it's suddenly becomes "gallons", a number 55 times larger.
What is a "fact" - not a hypothesis or theory - is that 50% of us are below average IQ, therefore if we can convince the lower 50%, we can sell/win elections/fool you all the time.
... and you know what they say about "statistics".
Methinks a short course on "junk science" may be in order.
ITMT, as as absolutely "proved" by the above, it obviously too just too damn COLD in Texas this morning to work in the shop, despite the hypothesis of mankind induced global warming.
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"Average" and "mean" are *exactly* the same thing.
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Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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<snipped>
Arithmetic mean is same as average, you may be confusing it with the median or mode, other terms used by statisticians to confuse one and all.
Call up the Inhofe presentation, "average" that with the climate alarm grou[p, and you can stop worrying. Nothing you can do about it anyway. But you might still need heat in the shop. I had to use heat last night to keep the latex paints and water based glues from freezing. Most years get by with a hundred watt light bulb.
Frank
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"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

Nope, no confusion, but I may well have assumed too much, too early in the morning, about the webpages attempt at "statistical" evidence.
Remark was based on what appeared to me to be an attempt to determine/define a rate of change in global warming/temperatures. Did I just imagine that, or did I just read that into it?
In any event, last time I took the course (maybe too many years ago), a statiscal analysis of *rate of change* is assumed to use a "geometric" mean on the data, as an arithmetic mean (average) would result in a higher, and inarguably invalid conclusion ... unless, of course, you are trying to mislead someone.
As you can probably guess, I'm convinced there is a LOT of statistical "misleading" on this issue.

I agree ... but don't tell that to Al before the Oscar's!

I managed to get a glue-up done before it got too cold last night, but until just this afternoon doing anything else that had to do with glue or finishing was out of the question.
I think I'll just wait until that annual, "statistically predictable", global warming called summer, where the "average" temperature is in the 90's. ;)
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As explained by others, they are synonyms.

As the paragraph explains, they did preliminary estimates in mid December using some model. But the rest of December, that had not occurred yet, actually came in warmer than the model predicted. In business you make projections of sales, profit, etc. for the year. You update this as the year goes along. The estimate in mid year for the whole year is half realized and half unrealized based upon models. Until the year ends you do not know the actual profit, sales, etc. But all businesses do this. You are always comparing budget to actual and projected to be sure things do not get out of hand. I'm guessing you never worked on the financial side of a business.

See above. You make projections throughout the year and then compare your projections to actual at the end. Called backtesting. You then use this information to improve your model for estimating so you can project better next time. Being able to reliably project the future in a business, or anything, is valuable. Predictability is what you want. You can plan for predictability. Take winter for example. Where I live its predictably cold and snowy. The DOT uses this reliable prediction to budget for road clearing, sand and salt stockpiling, etc. In Texas you really don't have predictable winters. Normally they are warm. So you do not plan anything. Then when ice and snow hit Dallas, you are really screwed. Where I live, when the ice and snow come, we just send out the snow plows and everything continues as normal.

You adjust it to make it comparable. For instance a Unisaw cost $100 in 1939. A Unisaw costs $1800 today. How would you compare them? You adjust the 1939 dollars for inflation so it represents 2007 dollars. Houston and Dallas/Ft. Worth were not sprawling concrete things until recently. Concrete urban centers cause their own weather by warming up the entire area. Concrete holds heat. So a 80 degree Dallas day in 1900 is not exactly comparable to an 80 degree day in 2006. The 80 degree Dallas reading in 2006 may actually represent 76 degrees ambient air temperature and 4 degrees from the concrete.

This is your quote:

You claim to be colder this winter than you have been in years. You are the one who feels cold. Even though Texas, like every other state in the USA was warmer in December than average. Your being colder than you have been in years is not temperature related because Texas was warmer than average in December. You are older now. Old people seem to complain about being cold more than young people. Are you wearing fewer layers of clothes now than years ago? Are your clothes not as warm, less insulation in them? Are you skinnier than in years past? Why are you colder this winter than you have been in years? Its not the temperature.
You obviously know in what context I used the term feel. 60 degrees in Dallas in July feels COLD. 60 degrees in Dallas in January feels HOT. Its relative. December was above average temperature according to NOAA. So when January returns to its normal cold temperature, it feels really COLD. Even though its just normal temperature. Yesterday morning I was outside around 8 AM and it was 0 degrees and the sun was still low in the sky. When I was outside again at 11:30 AM it was about 10 degrees and the sun was high in the sky. It felt reasonably warm at 11:30 AM yesterday. Out of the wind anyway. 10 degrees was still well below the normal temperature for January. But relative to the dawn period, it felt warm.

I guess you could use Celcius in the winter to prove how cold Texas is. And Fahrnheit in the summer to prove how hot Texas is. As long as you are consistent from year to year, it would be valid. But you are against adjustments per your previous statement.

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