Hand Plane Comparison: Stanley vs. Veritas

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Silvan wrote:

I struggled with this as well (<http://tinyurl.com/675gf ). I ended up using Jeff Gorman's suggestion (<http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingpoints/edgeplaning/squareedgeindex.htm ) . It works very well if you should want to give it a try.
Although certainly not an "old" hand at it now, I have flattened quite a lot of very rough stock by hand, typically 10" wide stuff. Sometimes I thickness small pieces by hand just for the pleasure of it too. If you are going to do this much, a scrub plane is really really really handy. You might be able to get one cheap used, or get ECE woody, or get a really crappy #4/5 (used or Home Depot junk) and put a *heavy* camber on the blade and open up the throat a mile. This will make the heavy chores surprisingly fast and easy. You really want to do this, honest. Use that crappy grinder of yours. It's a scrub plane, it doesn't have to be perfect (hell, mine currently has a pretty good nick out of the blade...)
PK
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Paul Kierstead wrote:

No time to look at the moment, but I'm sure I tried that too. :)

I have one, just as you described more or less. It's the new #4 with a broken old lever cap that has no spring, the mouth is wide open, and it has a vicious ugly ) blade in it. It does nasty things to wood, and does it fast. But it doesn't get anything flat.
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Silvan wrote:

Hmm...well, "flat" is a kinda funny word. You should be able to get a board pretty flat with a scrub plane, where flat is defined as all the planing ridges lie in the same plane. It will not be smooth, but will be mostly flat. Make sense? The switch planes for real flat and smooth.
PK
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If you

the type of work to be performed. Thicker would be nice, so you could get rid of a bunch of chatter telegraphing to your elbow.
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Alex
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Wow. I am a middle aged guy in pretty good shape, and when I tried to do it all with an old #4 it was a heavy duty workout. Just taking a 4/4 roughsawn board down to 3/4" is a lot of wood removal. Even face jointing a board with a lot of bow or twist in it is fair work. I did it that way for a while, and it sure made me appreciate a power jointer and planer.
It also made me appreciate the skill of the guys who can neander it really perfectly flat and square with nothing but a plane and a couple of winding sticks :-)

That's great. The only time I joint by hand anymore is when I've got a nice-grained board that's wider than my power jointer.

You bet! Only thing that matters more than the results is the enjoyment :-)
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Nate Perkins wrote:

Sorry you had such a hard time of it Nate. Just FYI, a #4 is a smoother, that's why it was so hard for you to remove the 1/4" of wood with it. A #6 or so would have been a better place to start and then, when you had it down to nearly the right thickness and flatness, switch down to a #5 and then a #4. Least that's the way I do it. As for jointing, it's simple. Clamp the two boards on top of each other on your shooting board and run a #6 or #7 on its side along the sandwiched sdes of the boards until the shaving is full length, doesn't take more than a couple minutes unless the baords are amazingly shaped. The sides will match up and be ready to glue.
It sounds as though you are missing some planes from your collection. But then, who isn't. %-)
Dave in Fairfax
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Right, I know how to do it (and have done it with most of the planes you suggest). The fellow I was replying to was considering doing it all with a #4. Having tried it once, I was trying to caution him that (while possible) it is a lot of work.

Planes that help me mill lumber wouldn't be of much use to me, since I do most all lumber milling by machine. I admire the skill and persistence of the neanders, YMMV.
The planes I would find handy are: - a Veritas medium shoulder plane (upgrade for my Record 077) - a Lie-Nielsen low angle block (upgrade for my Stanley 60-1/2) - a Veritas scraping plane (upgrade for my Stanley 80)
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Nate Perkins wrote:

Opps, my bad. I misunderstood. I like your list of wnated planes BTW, I was thinking #112 though. I'm not sure though, It'd save my thumbs, but it seems to me that there was a thread a while back about how hard it was to get a #112 style plane to work properly.
Dave in Fairfax
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Dave in Fairfax wrote:

The ol' Blood and Gore himself, I suspect.
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Nate Perkins wrote:

I was doing skip planed S2S FWIW. Only the edges were rough. The faces were too ugly to use without attention, but most of the hogging work had been done already.

I finally bought a power jointer. Little bitty one. All I could afford money or room for, but I do appreciate it.

Yeah buddy! They didn't even get a 2000-grit mirror polish on their blades, or lap their plane soles on a piece of granite.
But you know, the side of that coin that people don't talk about much is that woodworking used to be too expensive for most people to enjoy. We romanticize about the days of yore, but how many colonists were out in their shops on weekends making furniture and whatnot? They were too busy worrying about food. Everybody used to have some skill, but most of it was strictly utilitarian. Furniture was a luxury most people couldn't afford, even while they were surrounded by walnut trees 5' in diameter. Or hell, CHESTNUT trees.

Well said.
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OK, now that's a different question altogether.
The #4 is not particularly good at that. A #5 is better, and a #6 better still. And you WILL want and need a good block plane.
I have done without a power jointer so far, but it isn't as though I've been saving money - I just don't have the space to give it. Yet. But the planer cost about the same as two good handplanes, is a lot faster, and does things for you that will take a good while to learn to do with planes.
S3S lumber, a planer, a LV block plane, and a LV low angle smoother can get you a long ways towards finishing your projects. And finishing is what will make it easier to budget for more tools.
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"Mike H." wrote:

If you're starting with roughsawn wood, you need to flattten it, and square your edges. That means longer planes, not shorter ones and a shooting board or very large and flat bench. A #4 is boing to be one of the last planes that you use in the process, it finishes up wha the others have gotten "just about right". DAGS on shooting board for more info. A #6 or 7 is very useful on flattening as well as in squaring up the wood, then you'll need to go backwards yo a #5 and then a #4 or #3. Hopefully you won't need a scrub plane, but in a pinch a #4 with a highly radiused blade will work to flatten the board before you use the longer of the planes. You really need to check out http://www.supertool.com as well as http://www.amgron.clara.net for info on what planes are used for what and how to care and use them. The reason that many people have suggested using the older Stanleys is that you can't do everything you need to do with just one or two planes, not realistically anyway, and that the cost start mounting pretty quickly if you are buying new planes. The old planes are likely to have been used by someone who knew how to use them, so little to no fettling may be required.
All of this assumes that you can sharpen a plade to a high degree of sherpeness, pretty darn isn't sharp enough by half. Look in the antiques stores and tag sales in your area for old planes. Depending on where you are this can range from a no-brainer to very difficult.
I hope this helps, Dave in Fairfax
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I own three planes, all bought new. Stanley, Knight, Veritas. I will never buy a new Stanley plane. It is OK now, but took me a few hours to get it right.
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wrote in message

Two major points which recommend the Veritas smoother are room for the hand at the handle, and ease of throat adjustment. They will always be there on the Veritas, as will the lateral limit adjustments. They will never be there on the Stanley.
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I forgot all about those nice set screws!
Barry
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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:13:50 -0600, "Mike H."

Sure. Some OLD Stanley's work very well. Most will need at least some work. A Hock iron will hold an edge better than any original. I've purchased a few Stanley's, tuned them, added good irons and chip breakers, and ended up spending nearly what a Veritas planes costs.
Veritas planes come close to ready to go, except for a bit of Cosmolene that needs to be cleaned off, and maybe a very quick touch up of the edge. The bottoms are flat, the sides are square, the irons have flat backs, etc...
Veritas planes also are designed with really nice adjusting mechanisms, adjustable throat openings and a frog that supports the high quality blade better than a typical Stanley. Lee Valley also has satisfaction guarantee. I doubt they get many planes back.

Plastic knobs, sides that aren't square, a sole that isn't flat, and a blade that won't hold an edge. What more could you want in a hand plane? <G>
I don't use standard bench planes as much as some folks might, as I use machines for grunt work. My Veritas low angle block and medium shoulder planes are constantly in use. I have some pre-1950 Stanley #5's and a #4 with Hock irons. I put a ton of time into them to get them working well, but they still don't have the mechanism or adjustable mouth of the Veritas versions.
FWIW, once you use a good shoulder plane, you'll be amazed at how much time can be saved cutting tenons a scootch oversize and custom trimming them during the dry fit. A swipe or two, and a perfect fit is yours!
Trust me, a good plane is poetry in motion, a new Stanley is a doorstop.
Barry
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Ba r r y wrote: ...

You have any particular recommendations? I've been watching for a while but haven't leapt as I'm not sure what is/isn't value and/or desirable models...
I do mostly medium to larger size work...right now the driving forcie is finishing the rebuilding of the barnd doors...they are full-size 2x6 first growth southern yellow pine w/ hand work beveled edges around a tongue and groove base w/ an "x" on the upper half. The originals were simply nailed together and they've lasted about 80 years so far, but a couple have sufficient water damage that several pieces are beyond repair for restoration...they look good from the outside still, but when taken apart the interior is all punky and there's so much volume it's just not practical to reconstitute them, unfortunately. I'll keep the originals for the "museum" of collectibles I've discovered during the restoration process...
Anyway, when re-building I'm using loose tenons in the main corners to hold them and putting solid tenons on the replacement parts...these are 4" W x 5/8" T and 2-1/2" deep. Something to help tune these up is first priority...I got one new one done and it was fairly slow slogging by the chisel route to clean them up...
After that, more modest sized work would be the norm...
If I had a place to post them, I'd put a couple pictures of the old barn and progress up (if, of course, anybody cares... :) )
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Duane Bozarth wrote:

You can do it for free here and post the URLs. ;-) http://tinypic.com/
-- Mark
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Either of the Veritas shoulder planes is a great place to start. I have the medium, because of the scale of the work I do. I've briefly tested the large, but I don't (yet) need one that big.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?pageH430&category=1,41182,48945 &ccurrency=2&SID Patriarch
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