Gun Checkering

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On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:45:55 -0600, Leon wrote:

Generally when old enough to join the armed forces, but even then you're not allowed to bring any weapons home with you. :-)
In the case of ownership of air weapons the minimum age is 17 but when and where they can be used is subject to restrictions.
Finally, when it comes to small arms owned and kept by private individuals, the UK is 'grown up' enough to realise that this is a bad idea. A private individual may apply for a firearms certificate at the age of 18, but has to jump through quite a number of legal and psychological hoops successfully before it may be issued. If it IS issued. You have to have an extremely good verifiable reason to keep a firearm at home.
Nevertheless I have been a big firearm fan all my life.
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Aardvark wrote:

subjugated

Fixed that for ya. Especially since you have no way of justifying that you have a peaceful society. You have a society in which the thugs run free and the law abiding citizens are afraid to defend themselves. No thanks.
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 10:53:46 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

'grown up' and civilised

Didn't need fixing thanks. Repaired it. I also added a little extra.

Why would I try to justify an assertion I never made in the first place?

Where do you get THAT preposterous idea?
Facts & figures
* The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in 2006/07 compared to the previous year. * Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in 2006/07, compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%. * The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3% * There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun crimes in 2006/07. * The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by 15% in 2006/07. * The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15% in 2006/07 over 2005/06.
(taken from <http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/ gun-crime/>)
I suggest you compare that with US government figures:
<http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
I'm sorta glad that every Tom, Dick and Harry yahoo in this country doesn't have easy access to firearms as they do in the US.

What did I offer you?
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Aardvark wrote:

the private citizen owning firearms. If no one has buns then no one can kill someone with one.... Therefore the number of incidents with firearms can't be reduced one year to the next.
A number of years ago Florida had a problem with gang bangers robbing and killing residents. They passed a concealed carry law. The number of incidents with residents went down drastically. The number of incidents with visitors went up because they couldn't defend themselves. You draw the conclusions.
Dave
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:41:35 -0600, David G. Nagel wrote:

Of course not, but there will always be a (hopefully decreasing according to Home Office figures) number of illegally held firearms. And there will always be the occasional crime committed using a legally held one.
The owning of firearms is certainly NOT prohibited in the UK, it's just difficult to do, I'm glad to say.

I'll assume you don't mean confectionery :-)

The figures from the Home office show an annual reduction in firearm crime over the last few years.

Conclusion: the availability of firearms in the US should be drastically curtailed. The sooner the better.

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Aardvark wrote:

Huh? I guess by having all the potential victims unarmed, it will reduce the probability of a visitor being the victim of a crime.
Your conclusion betrays an unmoveable mindset. Despite evidence showing that an armed citizenry has actually reduced crime, and that an unarmed subgroup (i.e. visitors) were more likely to be victims because the criminals (you know, those people who break the law and therefore don't care if firearms were illegal) know they have a target group that can't defend themselves -- your conclusion is to disarm the group that can defend itself. Nice.

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Aardvark wrote:

England who, one day, was visiting a gun show. Low and behold he recognized his old Lee-Enfield MK4. This was the weapon he defended England and fought NAZI Germany with. He immediately purchased the weapon and properly registered it with the local officials. Some years later, as the gentleman grew older, the local police chief decided that this gallant former soldier was no longer capable of owning the weapon he used during WWII. The point here is that the local copper had absolutely no evidence to backup his decision but the old soldier had to either turn in his weapon or have the local smitty weld the barrel closed so that it could no longer be used. This is what we in the States refused to permit. If the old gentleman could be trusted with the safety of your country why should he no longer be trusted with the weapon he used in it's defence.
Dave
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Aardvark wrote:

Mine was closer to the truth. Subjugated applies when: a) Someone who defends himself and his family in his home is sent to jail while the thugs go free -- see previous postings in thread for backup b) It is illegal to sell table saws that are dado-set capable c) Somebody has to throw away perfectly good produce because it is too small according to EU rules. He can't even give them away, they must be destroyed. d) Selling produce by English units is punishable by fine e) Numerous other examples of PC run amok regarding interaction with your "immigrant" population

Nice statistics, but they don't tell the whole story. Overall, what is your crime rate compared to years past? Things like assaults, home invasions, burglaries, homicides (with all weapons)? What is the rate of arrests and convictions? While gun crimes may be down slightly, reading various reports indicates that overall crime is up, arrests are down, even those arrested aren't convicted, those convicted serve very short sentences (would be a hardship on the perps after all), and law abiding citizens have few rights to protect themselves.
Various folks who have analyzed your crime rates indicate they weren't all that high to begin with and it is a stretch to think that your gun laws have really done anything to reduce that.

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There was a time whenit was considered a rite of passage that all 12 year old boys got a single shot .22 to learn basic firearm safety and skills. The safety and skills are the key.
You can't keep the kids locked up forever. And the skills learned will serve him for the rest of his life.
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"Lee Michaels" wrote:

There was also a time when learning to handle a team of horses behind a plow was a necessary skill, but times have changed.
Today, interpersonal skills are at a premium.
I still have that single shot .22 my dad used to hunt squirrels. (He could "bark" a squirrel until he started wearing glasses.)
I shot my first rabbit with it, but that was over 60 years ago.
This summer went back to see where I grew up.
The pasture out my back door where I learned to hunt is now a housing development.
Back then, there were 250 million people in the US, today it is 300+ million and growing.
It's nice to dream about the good old days, but as my mother used to say, "times change, and we must change with them."
My children and grand children have absolutely no interest in learning to use firearms, but then they have acquired skills that do not interest me.
That's life.
Lew
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:30:02 GMT, Aardvark cast forth these pearls of wisdom...:

What is wrong with that? For many people, especially those of the boomer generation, getting a first gun at this age was commonplace. It went hand in hand with gun and safety training and respect. It developed responsible shooters.
On the other hand, you have today's version of it - ignore teaching responsibility, pretend that if you make guns go away, you'll make problems go away, lock everything up instead of investing time in your kids. Yup - that sure works.
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You know, it's funny how cultural differences really pile up. I'm a liberal, born and raised just outside NYC, but I also enjoy guns, though I no longer shoot. I know for a fact Tom Watson is a careful and loving parent, who has already helped his son through Pinewood Derby competitions and taught him to fish, among many other things. His children's accomplishments, and what he wants to teach them, sometimes dominate our conversations, but always pleasantly.
The fact is, any gun, even a single shot .22 like the CZ Tom bought, is a deadly weapon.
So are kitchen knives.
The only real difference is the range.
Careful handling instructions result in careful handling.
Aardvark, you obviously don't understand the kicks kids, and a lot of adults, get in seeing precisely placed shots hit a target, whether that target is on a range, or is just a tin can in a back yard (probably not advisable in most of the east any more).
Oh. Car keys. I was taught to drive when I was about 12, a year older than Tom's son. To date, 58 years later, I've managed to miss everything around me. Today, kids are not likely to learn to drive without a formal high school course at the age of 16, in most states. And they do kills themselves (mostly) and others (occasionally). Maybe we should rescind the driving privilige until they turn 25 when the stats drop a bit.
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Charlie Self wrote:

I kind of wonder if that would even help. You would just have older inexperienced drivers making those mistakes. On the plus side, maybe some of that young and immortal attitude would have worn off some (but I'm thinking that doesn't really take hold until the late to mid-30's). On the negative side, those older inexperienced drivers will have lost some of the quick reaction times possessed during youth. My guess is that very little gain would be obtained.
... and I'm pretty sure that parents aren't going to want to be carting their 24 year-old kid to the kid's job. :-)
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*snip*

When I went through HS driver's ed and was qualified to get my license, my parents weren't ready. How many kids have that kind of "problem" at home?
Hit a deer once, got rear ended once, and that's it. That basically mirrors my parent's record.
Puckdropper
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I was having a discussion with my son-in-law about the things every competent adult should be able to do. The list includes such things as:
Safely shoot and handle firearms. Change a tire. Change a diaper. Change the oil in a car. Cook a meal. Feed a baby. Do laundry Sew on a button. A wide variety of simple home repairs.
Others?
-- Doug
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Robert A. Heinlein had this list: "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
I'm pretty sure that is from "Time Enough for Love." I've always liked the tag line.
Bill Ranck Blacksburg, Va.
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:21:22 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@vt.edu wrote:

...well, crap, where do I find a ship to conn!? ;O)
(grew up on Edgar Rice Burroughs and Robert Heinlein..."Tarzan" to "Starship Troopers" with some "Thuvia Maid of Mars" thrown in there somewhere...).
cg
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Read a tape rule.
Basilisk
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I still screw that one up from time to time. -- Doug
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:41:53 -0600, Douglas Johnson wrote:

Don't we all? :-)
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