Glue Power

[J T]

For some reason, this morning I was reminded of some of the people who've asked for stronger wood glue.

According to what I've read, the wood glue made today, any brand, is stronger than the wood. You don't actually need "stronger" glue. If you don't believe it, take a couple of scrap chunks of 2X4, glue them edge to edge with the wood glue of your choie, clamp 'em, let 'em sit for a couple of days, and try to get them apart. The first router table I made wasn't doing what I wanted, so decided to recycle the wood, and make a new one. I recyclesd it - after awhile. I had to beat it apart with my baby sledge hammer - a regular sledge hammer with a handle cut down to about 12". It wasn't a matter of a couple of light taps and it fell apart. It was more a matter of a bunch of full strength blows, and then it either split the pieces along the middle, or the food failed along the glue lines. It was the wood that failed, not the glue. The glue was Titebond II.

I glued some pieces up at about 55F once. Then for whatever reason, decided that wasn't what I wanted. Used a chisel at the glue line and a couple of taps with a mallet popped it on the glue line neat as can be. That time it was the glue the failed. But the reason for that was it was too cold when I glued it up.

I've tried the chisel at the glue line on "good" glue joints too. It usually pops the pieces apart at the glue line too - however, even thos it does part at the glue line, it is the wood that gives, not the glue, it pulls small chunks out of one of the pieces. Don't believe it, try it.

I did have a piece I needed to take apart, without destroying it. I figured out I could saw it apart, eventually. Would have taken quite awhile tho, and I would have had to really pay a lot of attention to do a good job. So, called the 1-800 number on the bottle. The glue was Titebond II, as always. The tech guy told me head would do it. So, used hair blower on the joint, on high. Probably took me 10-15 minutes of steady work and twisting and turning before it came loose and a couple more minutes before it actually parted ways. The section was only about 6" long, but about 2" thick, so there was a pretty fair sized glue joint.

As I understand it the strength of any of the glues is stronger than the wood. The set-up time can vary, as the losest temperature the glue should b used at. I happen to like Titebond II so I stick with it. It does everything I need a woodworking glue to do and I figure on keeping using it. So if you're worried about what glue to use, I'd suggest buying the smallest bottles of whatever glues you're interested in and testing them.

I din't have anything better to do while I drank my cuppa tea before I go to town and check the mail. Got a neat book in t he mail yesterday, and expecting another today. Life is basically good.

JOAT When in doubt, go to sleep.

- Mully Small

[Andy Dingley]

There's a reason for why a joint tends to fail at the glue line, and it applies whether the glue or the wood is the strongest. It's the discontinuity of properties that causes the weakness, not the absolute strength of either. Particularly if one material is stiffer (not stronger) than the other.

Wood and wood glue are both weak. A localised force applied to them will easily break either -- they're only strong when used in large sections and any sort of prybar (or chisel, you heathen!) is "small" in comparison. The discontinuity merely acts to localise the force applied and that's enough to break it.

[lwhaley]

My good man,

The people of this group are well aware that a properly made glue joint is stronger than the surrounding material so you have gained little with your post.

I learned this fact in high school shop class when we performed a similar demostration where you glue up jointed material and then take a chisel to it. It's a classic that probably every beginning woodworking class does.

Now a glue that will last longer that's another question. Most of the wood glues we use will not adhere forever and most any glue joint will fail eventually unless the piece is very carefully stored. Stronger glues are available but have drawbacks. Fifty years is good service for a glue joint in my mind however. By the time it fails it's someones else problem, haha.

One theory is that you don't wan't a permanent joint that will never come apart. That takes into consideration future generations of crafsmen who will be asked to repair the object.

Work with furniture repair has taught me that it is always best to perform repairs that are reversable and that is the highest standard for valuable pieces like antiques. Regular wood glue can be coaxed into failure if necessary for the purposes of the crafsman. Epoxies and the like cannot. I like my epoxy but regular wood glue is a better all around adhesive for woodworking.

[J T]

Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 9:29am (EST-3) [e-mail] (lwhaley) doth blather:

1) My good man, 2) The people of this group are well aware that a properly made glue joint is stronger than the surrounding material so you have gained little with your post. =A0 3) It's a classic that probably every beginning woodworking class does. 4) Now a glue that will last longer that's another question. 5) Fifty years is good service for a glue joint in my mind however.

6) One theory is that you don't wan't a permanent joint that will never come apart.

7) Work with furniture repair has taught me that it is always best to perform repairs that are reversable and that is the highest standard for valuable pieces like antiques. 8) I like my epoxy but regular wood glue is a better all around adhesive for woodworking.

Responses keyed to numbers.

1) Watch your laguage, this is a family group. 2) Boy, sure can tell you haven't been here long. 3) My first woodworking class was i the 4th grade and we were never sown anything like that. 4) I was't aware that they'd discovered how lng a glue will last. Some of the Egyptian stuff is still holding together, how long bre they can expect it to fall apart? 5) No it's not. I've got a small solid cherry bookcase I made going on about 53 years ago, and it's still as solid as the day it was finished. 6) I was brought up with the theory that if ou didn't want a permanent joint you usd screws. 7) We weren' talking antiques. Anyway, for antiques I'd go to an accredited antique restorer. 8) You don't suppose that's why they call it wood glue, do you?

Here's the door to the archives.

in doubt, go to sleep.

- Mully Small

[J T]

Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 9:19am (EST-3) [e-mail] (Andy=A0Dingley) doth sayeth: any sort of prybar (or chisel, you heathen!)

When the Woodworking Gods heard what you called me they laughed. What does THAT mean?

JOAT When in doubt, go to sleep.

- Mully Small

[Andy Dingley]

Strength doesn't necessarily imply irreversibility (and thus reversibility doesn't require the joint to be weak). If you can dismantle the joint chemically (by solvents or hot steam) such that you don't need to lever it apart, then you can have it as strong as you like in the meantime.

[Larry Blanchard]

It's not just for antiques. Surely you've made something for your chik= dren or grandchildren with the hope (by them or you) that it will be passed on = to future generations. A cradle, a crib, a dresser, etc.. If so, it will=

eventually need repair. It's nice to be able to replace a component wi= thout wrecking the joints.

--=20 It's turtles, all the way down

[Andy Dingley]

I only ever make antiques or workshop cupboards. It's just not worth making anything _unless_ you're hoping it will survive to be a valued antique and so you put the effort into it. For aanything else, there's Ikea. They do it quicker, cheaper and even sometimes better than an individual can.

[<marierdj]

for antiques I'd go to an accredited antique restorer.

I do not know what is an accredited antique restorer. Could you please point me in the proper direction to learn about them. TIA

It's not just for antiques. Surely you've made something for your chikdren or grandchildren with the hope (by them or you) that it will be passed on to future generations. A cradle, a crib, a dresser, etc.. If so, it will eventually need repair. It's nice to be able to replace a component without wrecking the joints.

[J T]

Thu, Feb 15, 2007, 9:27am (EST-3) [e-mail] (Larry=A0Blanchard) doth sayeth: It's not just for antiques. Surely you've made something for your chikdren or grandchildren with the hope (by them or you) that it will be passed on to future generations. A cradle, a crib, a dresser, etc.. If so, it will eventually need repair. It's nice to be able to replace a component without wrecking the joints.

If it's not an antique, and it can't be repaired with a chainsaw, hammer, and nails, burn it and start over..

Thought you knew my views on cradles. Make a rocking chair instead. Then get the kid asleep, lay him/her on the floor, or any place they can't roll off of, then relax in the chair. Unless you believe in barefoot and pregnant you're gonna get a lot more use out of a rocking chair than you will out of a cradle.

JOAT When in doubt, go to sleep.

- Mully Small

[lwhaley]

We are in agreement and didn't mean to imply that reversable repairs are weak. They can be stronger than the surrounding wood. I just meant to say that they can be desirable compared to less reversable repairs like epoxy but you have explaned it well.

Epoxy is, however, difficult to repair, that's the downside. I never try to coax apart any epoxy. I use a syringe with a solvent, starting with warm water, that I inject in to stubborn joints that are glued normally.

In a well constructed piece the joint does most of the work and will out last the glue by far. Many older pieces no longer have good glue but the quality of the joints will hold it together. Even a well constructed dowel joint can last a long time.

Where I live up north we have an extreme of temperature and humidity that is hard on furnitrue and I see a lot of failed glue joints even on relatively new chairs.

[J T]

Thu, Feb 15, 2007, 10:03am (EST-3) [e-mail] (Andy=A0Dingley) doth sayeth: I only ever make antiques or workshop cupboards. It's just not worth making anything _unless_ you're hoping it will survive to be a valued antique and so you put the effort into it.

I'd never thought of it that way, but I'd say I do the same. I don't think I've made anything that could be damaged by accident, you'd pretty much have to work at it to hurt them. So I figure most of it will still be around, not needing repairs, for hundreds of years from now, unless someon decides they're too ugly to save. Actually the only thing I've made that I think might qualify for being that ugly is the rocking chair I made about 10 years ago. But the design looks like it could be made knock-down pretty easily, so I may eventually wind up making another. With my luck, this one will probably wind up in a museum after I die and the description of it will say I was an "artiste". Urgh.

JOAT When in doubt, go to sleep.

- Mully Small

[J T]

Interesting. I just watched an episode of How It's Made. Among several, they showed making violins. The only fastener used is glue, and they expect it to last a long time.

It also showed how toilet paper is made, perhaps the single most important thing in the galaxy. They use glue to make the cardboard rolls, and to glue the end down.

JOAT When in doubt, go to sleep.

- Mully Small

[Rod & Betty Jo]

And to think I had you pegged as a corn cob (cheap) kinda guy...will wonders ever cease?...Rod

[Lew Hodgett]

Which begs the question:

Why are there both red and white corn cobs found in an outhouse?

Answer:

First you use a red one,

Then you use a white one,

To see if you need to use another red one.

(A little Chic Sales humor there)

Lew

[J T]

Fri, Feb 16, 2007, 2:20pm (EST-3) [e-mail] (Rod=A0&=A0Betty=A0Jo) doth proclaimeth: And to think I had you pegged as a corn cob (cheap) kinda guy...will wonders ever cease?...Rod

Hah, not since I got civilizzed. I've got a total of something over150 rolls on hand as I type - got another colonoscopy coming up on 6 Mar, and I want to be sure I'don't run out.

JOAT When in doubt, go to sleep.

- Mully Small

[J T]

Sat, Feb 17, 2007, 12:53am (EST+5) [e-mail] (Lew=A0Hodgett) doth query: Which begs the question: Why are there both red and white corn cobs found in an outhouse?

Can't say I recall actually using corn, but possible. I do recall using Monkey Ward catalog pages, and newspaper. I'll take newspaper over the catalogs, less sharp edges. I also rember my first tour in Germany in '62, and the crude toilet paper with splinters in it. .

JOAT When in doubt, go to sleep.

- Mully Small