different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.
you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.
regards, charlie
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.
you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.
regards, charlie
Then plane it a little thinner 8-)
I certainly do -- you should have stopped at 10.9 .
But if you had started with 9.9, then you'd have 6 round-ups and 6 round-downs in a series of twelve.
What? You say that's not valid?
It's every bit as valid as including 11.0 in a series that properly should run from 10.0 to 10.9 .
Examined another way -- if you're going to include 11.0 in a series that starts with 10.0, then the next set should run from 11.1 (not 11.0) through
11.9, and you see 4 round-downs and 5 round-ups.It doesn't.
As an elementary demonstration of your fallacy, consider this series -- and note that I'm even giving you the erroneous inclusion of 11 at the end:
10.00 10.01 .. 10.49 (all rounded down to this point) 10.50 (all rounded up hereafter) .. 10.99 11.00 101 numbers. 50 round down, 51 round up.Extend it one more decimal point, and the numbers become 1001, 500, 501 respectively. And so on.
Oh, please. Who uses a Cray XP for financial applications?
No effect -- because it rounds down fifty percent of the time, and up fifty percent of the time.
Got a cite for that?
I didn't think so.
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.
you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.
regards, charlie
If I'm rounding a number to become 11, then 11 is in the argument. I am not rounding anything to become 10.9. If I'm rounding down a number to become 10, it is also in the argument.
Do NOT modify my argument to suit your limited ability to understand it.
My argument is valid as it stands. Adding decimals won't change anything.
Now go play with your straw men and red herrings elsewhere.
r
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.
you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.
regards, charlie
Then plane it a little thinner 8-)
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.
you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.
regards, charlie
different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly brown.
you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.
regards, charlie
10.0 10.1 10.2 10.3 10.4
10.5
10.6 10.7 10.8 10.9 11.0Do you see anything odd here? The first series round down to 10 and occurs 5 times in the sequence from 10 to 11. The second series round up to 11 and occurs 6 times in the sequence from 10 to 11.
When the rounding up procedure happens 10% more often than the rounding down procedure, what do you think the result will be if you have a Cray XP transact 1 trillion times an interest calculation. We're talking billions of dollars. Which is why they don't use that rounding procedure. They round even numbers down, and odd numbers up (or the other way around, I forgot), That way the occurance is balanced over large numbers of transactions.
IOW 10.2 could be 11?
r10.0 10.1 10.2 10.3 10.4
10.5
10.6 10.7 10.8 10.9 11.0Do you see anything odd here? The first series round down to 10 and occurs 5 times in the sequence from 10 to 11. The second series round up to 11 and occurs 6 times in the sequence from 10 to 11.
When the rounding up procedure happens 10% more often than the rounding down procedure, what do you think the result will be if you have a Cray XP transact 1 trillion times an interest calculation. We're talking billions of dollars. Which is why they don't use that rounding procedure. They round even numbers down, and odd numbers up (or the other way around, I forgot), That way the occurance is balanced over large numbers of transactions.
IOW 10.2 could be 11?
r10.0 10.1 10.2 10.3 10.4
10.5
10.6 10.7 10.8 10.9 11.0Do you see anything odd here? The first series round down to 10 and occurs 5 times in the sequence from 10 to 11. The second series round up to 11 and occurs 6 times in the sequence from 10 to 11.
When the rounding up procedure happens 10% more often than the rounding down procedure, what do you think the result will be if you have a Cray XP transact 1 trillion times an interest calculation. We're talking billions of dollars. Which is why they don't use that rounding procedure. They round even numbers down, and odd numbers up (or the other way around, I forgot), That way the occurance is balanced over large numbers of transactions.
IOW 10.2 could be 11?
r
operated lamp and shine it on a clean sheet in a dark room. The tin side glows with a very pale pink cast.
-S
I love the way this thread is going . . . but I'm glad I didn't mention 'significant number' !!
However, to clarify . . . the 'round off' incident occurred when I was getting gas to 're-fill' a rental car before returning it. I asked for 10 gallons. The pump stopped at 10.2. The 'jockey said . . . 'I'll round it off for you.' Naively, I figured 10.5 gal - a few tenths. Next thing I know it's
11 gallons. At 28 cents a gallon it's one thing . . . at $2.40 it's a *significant number* !! {$delta = $1.92}. That's 'nearly' $2.oo - and I'd rather it remained in MY pocket.The point that initiated this digression to the original thread was that the clerk {and the 'pump jockey} had *no idea* of the concept involved. Further, regarding the glass, if you are going to represent a business and take a person's money for a product or service . . . it behooves you to know that product or service. Or at least have the smarts & 'intestinal fortitude' to say, 'I don't know, let me find out' - then go and ASK someone.
No, I'm not an 'old curmudgeon'. It's just that prices have reached a level that I *want* what I'm paying for - and don't feel *I* should have to compromise or accept incompetence.
| Morris Dovey wrote: || SimonLW (in 4582697e$1 snipped-for-privacy@newsfeed.slurp.net) said: || ||| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin ||| side from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, but ||| important to businesses and artists who paint or print on the ||| glass. A glass business should know this. || || I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it || important? | | glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving | different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are | copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly | brown.
Interesting. Usually I'm trying to /not/ paint glass - but this is good information to have filed away. Next time I'm near my local glass shop I'll stop in and ask for a demo.
| you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the tin | side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you have metal | filings, some people can tell by licking the glass.
Now this info opens up some really interesting possibilities. Does the tin show up brightly; and is it purely a surface deposit (IOW, will it rub/scrub off)?
I think I'd rather go with the UV or water bead tests than lick something without knowing where it's been or who might have licked it before me... :-P
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA
What he described is knowns as "banker's" rounding. That is not proof that bankers actually use it though. The naming might just be a coincidence ;-)
you're misunderstanding. these are glass paints that are fired onto (and becoming one with) the glass in a range of 1000-1400F. think church stained glass windows with faces fired onto them. latex/oil paint has no affect with the tin layer.
typical window glass shops, i would expect, would not know of this. a decorative glass store (stained, fused, structural, etc) would.
float glass is made by floating molten glass onto a bed of molten tin in an oxygen-free atmosphere. the tin layer has to be blasted off to remove it. btw: there is tin layer in old fashioned plate glass, but hardly anyone makes that anymore.
it's not that bright, but can be seen pretty clearly in the dark. germicidal uv lights are not common, nor are they generally healthy to have around and be looking into a lot. they typically come with a lot of warnings and a purple glass shield which has to be removed to get the correct uv light out of them to show the glowing.
the beading is very subtly different. you can also wash it before licking....
that should read: there is NO tin layer...
| Morris Dovey wrote: || charlie (in snipped-for-privacy@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com) || said: || ||| Morris Dovey wrote: |||| SimonLW (in 4582697e$1 snipped-for-privacy@newsfeed.slurp.net) said: |||| ||||| On a similar note, most shops have no clue how to tell the tin ||||| side from the air side of float glass. This is not well known, ||||| but important to businesses and artists who paint or print on ||||| the glass. A glass business should know this. |||| |||| I guess I'm among the clueless. How does one tell; and why is it |||| important? ||| ||| glass enamels are really minerals. some react with tin, giving ||| different colors than are intended. for example, some blues are ||| copper based, and can react with the tin layer to make a fugly ||| brown. || || Interesting. Usually I'm trying to /not/ paint glass - but this is || good information to have filed away. Next time I'm near my local || glass shop I'll stop in and ask for a demo. | | you're misunderstanding. these are glass paints that are fired onto | (and becoming one with) the glass in a range of 1000-1400F. think | church stained glass windows with faces fired onto them. latex/oil | paint has no affect with the tin layer.
Aha! Ok - now I understand a bit better. Thanks.
| typical window glass shops, i would expect, would not know of this. | a decorative glass store (stained, fused, structural, etc) would.
Gotcha. The shop I visit when I'm buying glass might - they do a fair volume of special order business and seem fairly savvy. They're also patient when I walk in and ask a lot of ignoramus-type questions. I have the distinct impression that they /like/ glass. I like its utility; but they seem to like the stuff itself.
||| you can detect it with a germicidal uv light in a dark room. the ||| tin side glows. it also beads up water differently, or if you ||| have metal filings, some people can tell by licking the glass. || || Now this info opens up some really interesting possibilities. Does || the tin show up brightly; and is it purely a surface deposit (IOW, || will it rub/scrub off)? | | float glass is made by floating molten glass onto a bed of molten | tin in an oxygen-free atmosphere. the tin layer has to be blasted | off to remove it. btw: there is tin layer in old fashioned plate | glass, but hardly anyone makes that anymore. | | it's not that bright, but can be seen pretty clearly in the dark. | germicidal uv lights are not common, nor are they generally healthy | to have around and be looking into a lot. they typically come with | a lot of warnings and a purple glass shield which has to be removed | to get the correct uv light out of them to show the glowing.
Understood. I've seen these things; and have some friends that use them (or something very like) for special effect signage with shields so that the tubes can't be seen directly.
|| I think I'd rather go with the UV or water bead tests than lick || something without knowing where it's been or who might have licked || it before me... :-P | | the beading is very subtly different. you can also wash it before | licking....
Yup. Still...
Thank you, Charley (and Simon). Like a lot of other people, I've been fascinated with what can be done with light and glass and color. It has a way of catching and holding the eye much the same way as does fireworks - except that it's much more lasting.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA
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