FWW Article: "you can't be serious" abount clamping.

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We have a winner.
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"Robatoy" wrote

It's certainly what Hillary and Obama are both hoping for in order to be a winner. :)
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Fri, Oct 5, 2007, 6:43am snipped-for-privacy@primelink1.net (C & S) doth posteth: <snip> While Roman Rabeij chose not to "blind us with the science" he makes the assertion that we really ought to have 1200 lbs/sq inch of clamping force <snip> What say you?
Sounds like he can't blind anyone with is "science", so he's trying to baffle with bullshit.
The other day I glued two pieces of wood, making a specialized, quicky, one-time use, planer sled. The top piece kept tipping, so I used a few pound lead weight on it, to hold it in place. Titebond II, as usual, and if I'd wanted to part the joint the next day, I'd have had to saw it apart, or beat it with a hammer. If it hadn't tipped, I'd probably still have used a weight, because, while the joint would have held (for sure stronger than the wood), I've found that sometimes the top piece will creep a bit without. Most of the time I clamp, or heavier weight, but I'd say probably seldom, if ever, anywhere near even 200 pounds pressure.
JOAT "I'm an Igor, thur. We don't athk quethtionth." "Really? Why not?" "I don't know, thur. I didn't athk."
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J T wrote:

dpb linked to the abstract for one of the articles:
<http://swst.metapress.com/content/1050536165217317/?p ‹5006db06be4640acd2801679e46c4e&pi=3>
Basically, according to that article the optimum gluing pressure for PVA and sugar maple is .5 times the compression strength, or around 735psi.
However, they don't show the psi/glue strength curve, so the amount of strength loss at lower clamping pressures is not discussed.
Chris
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On Oct 5, 3:10 pm, snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (J T) wrote: Most of the time I clamp, or

Case in point: Look at all the laminating and veneering marvels taking place at a mere 14.6 PSIG..... in a vacuum bag.
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make that PSIA
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WHAT?!?!?!?
You don't have a high pressure chamber (that you can pressurize to 2000 PSI) with an attached vacuum line to deal with leakage.
You know, make your veneer sandwich in plastic bag. Enter pressure chamber. Attach vacuum line. Exit pressure chamber. Start vacuum. Start pressure (don't forget the 400 degree F heat) and wait while your new masterpiece is fused into one indivisable whole.
;)
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So how does this reconcile with Norm's constant advice not to clamp tight enough to squeeze the glue out of the joint? I'd have thought that going for 1,200 lb/sq in would have squeezed every atom of glue out long before it even got there.
FoggyTown
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wrote:

Are you sure he even used glue?
Sounds to me like he's trying to force the atoms in the separate pieces of wood to intermingle and form a single, contiguous piece. Forge welding wood?
Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA
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Your bench is doomed. ;) --dave

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On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 06:43:05 -0400, "C & S"

[snip]
I moved on the instant I saw the glue up with the QuickGrips on it. He asserts you can get greater pressure with them than K-Bodies? Please.
I bought my first QuickGrips probably 20 years ago. It took me all of about five minutes to figure out they were possibly okay for some tasks, but you couldn't depend on them staying clamped and they definitely couldn't be clamped really hard. Those first ones were also my last ones.
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LRod

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Yeah, I tried a couple of them when they first came out, and they were crap. After they sat around taking up spae for years, I finally just threw them out. One of the contractors I used to work with would pick one or two up every couple years to see if they ever improved, and they never seem to. Just one more of the gizmos that is targeted to homowners and handymen that just don;t know better (or just don't care).
Having said that, for one time very light duty use, I might grab one - IF they were a lot cheaper than any other option...
-jd
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jd wrote:

If they're slipping or not grabbing, _clean_ them. They often come from the store with grease on the lock or the bar--if there's any grease or oil there at all they'll slip. If they're clean they actually hold with a pretty good amount of force (and yes, I do have K-bodies). The big problem I have with them is that the jaws aren't very rigid, so the work will shift sideways during clamping.
I wouldn't have ever thought of getting them but I was working on an overhead job with a bunch of little bits and pieces and one of them fell on my head one time too many and I went down to Home Despot for a roll of carpet tape to hold them in place. On the way to the carpet tape I saw packages of four Quik-grips on sale for some absurdly low price, took a good look at them, and realized that they'd hold my bits and pieces without having to pry the carpet tape off later. Gave them a try, then started using them for other stuff. Found out that they were _far_ better than the comments I've seen here would suggest, as long as they were kept clean.
And yes, I have a bunch of K-bodys and pipe clamps and handscrews and C-clamps and probably just about any other kind of clamp you can imagine. Each serves a purpose.
Incidentally, the difficulty with getting high forces out of Besseys is the handle, it doesn't give you any real leverage.

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J. Clarke wrote:

I'll give it a shot, thanks!
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LRod wrote:

I knew I wouldn't be the only one who noticed that statement.
Quick Grips are excellent for one handed grabs, strapping my DT jig to the bench, hold-downs for biscuit cutting or drilling, etc... I've never had good luck with them for gluing.
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LRod wrote:

Were they the old Quickgrips, or the new ones? The newer "XP" ones can give a LOT more pressure than the old ones (they claim 900lbs squeezing with two hands).
Chris
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Tue, Oct 9, 2007, 2:20am (EDT+4) snipped-for-privacy@gmail-dot-.com (LRod) did sayeth: I moved on the instant I saw the glue up with the QuickGrips on it. He asserts you can get greater pressure with them than K-Bodies? Please. I bought my first QuickGrips probably 20 years ago. It took me all of about five minutes to figure out they were possibly okay for some tasks, but you couldn't depend on them staying clamped and they definitely couldn't be clamped really hard. Those first ones were also my last ones.
I never bought any cause they look so weak - and pricey. Actually, they look like plastic, but I never handled one, so can't say for sure. Got some metal equivalents at Big Lots for around $1.50 each. They work about like a caulking gun, and sure exert adequate pressure, have no problem with them staying clamped. I try to pick up one or two, if in stock, and about $2 each, which is not often. The other day they were $4+ each. Only 6" capacity, but no problem to cut one in half, then rivet or weld a metal extension in, to extend it a foot or so. Can be very handy at times.
JOAT "I'm an Igor, thur. We don't athk quethtionth." "Really? Why not?" "I don't know, thur. I didn't athk."
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J T wrote:

So which is it, did you never buy any QuickGrips or did you buy your first ones 20 years ago?
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Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 11:15am snipped-for-privacy@cox.net (J. Clarke) doth query: So which is it, did you never buy any QuickGrips or did you buy your first ones 20 years ago?
I never bought any QuickGrips. LRod bought some 20 years ago. I bought inexpensive metal quick clamps a few years back, and I've been quite happy with those.
JOAT "I'm an Igor, thur. We don't athk quethtionth." "Really? Why not?" "I don't know, thur. I didn't athk."
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On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:15:48 -0400, "J. Clarke"

The "first ones 20 years ago" was from my post. He doesn't know how to set webtv to identify quotes. I've fixed that in this one to what it is supposed to look like.
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LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
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