Fluorescent Lighting for Shop/Garage

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Waitaminnit, there was nothing crumby about that one, just a germ of an idea. In reality, I'm on a roll. So sesame!

IF I do that, I get headaches. REALLY bad ones, Margarines, in fact
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Don't forget color.
A yellow color is like the sun and is much brighter than the same in cool or other whites.
Martin
On 5/11/2011 12:14 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

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IMHO I think a big factor in deciding between 3000k (warm) and 5000k (cool) or even 6500k (daylight) bulbs is the following...
Where will the stuff you're making be seen?
If you're making indoor furniture, stick with warm bulbs, because most people use warm bulbs in their houses.
If you're making outdoor stuff, go with cool or daylight bulbs.
For office furniture, stick with warm-cool (flourescent). Etc.
The idea is, you'll be seeing the finish in your shop, the same color as the customer will be seeing it when they bring it home.
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"DJ Delorie" wrote in message
IMHO I think a big factor in deciding between 3000k (warm) and 5000k (cool) or even 6500k (daylight) bulbs is the following...
Where will the stuff you're making be seen?
If you're making indoor furniture, stick with warm bulbs, because most people use warm bulbs in their houses.
If you're making outdoor stuff, go with cool or daylight bulbs.
For office furniture, stick with warm-cool (flourescent). Etc.
The idea is, you'll be seeing the finish in your shop, the same color as the customer will be seeing it when they bring it home.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good thoughts BUT, IMHO you want bright, day light bright. You will not always be putting a finish on a project. You need better light for working. Warm indoor lighting is kinda dim by comparison. If color matters you should typically buy at a store that ofders the proper lighting for selecting the color.
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I really like the 6500 K fluorescent tubes for working, whether shop or kitchen. I do **NOT** like the 6500K CFL bulbs though. I find them harsh and too cold for anything. The long tubes are better suited anywhere in that temp colour but not the CFLs???
ON a side note We have many pot lights in home and many have 6500K CFLs in them. The light is a nice colour but we constantly come home at nights to find them on around the house. If you have any daylight coming in windows you don't notice when the bulbs are on upon leaving. The colour matched the window light so well it isn't noticed until dark outside.
The 5000K CFLs look about the same except appear to have a reddish tinge to them and a little less briliiance.
The 2700K - 3000K are needed for TV watching and bedroom usage. The 2700K are a bit too yellowish for me and it feels too dark with them. More "wattage" is required.
"DJ Delorie" wrote in message
IMHO I think a big factor in deciding between 3000k (warm) and 5000k (cool) or even 6500k (daylight) bulbs is the following...
Where will the stuff you're making be seen?
If you're making indoor furniture, stick with warm bulbs, because most people use warm bulbs in their houses.
If you're making outdoor stuff, go with cool or daylight bulbs.
For office furniture, stick with warm-cool (flourescent). Etc.
The idea is, you'll be seeing the finish in your shop, the same color as the customer will be seeing it when they bring it home.
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Bill wrote:

Facts & Opinion
There are two bad lighting conditions in any workspace: under lighted and over lighted; one is as bad as the other IME.
The Kelvin rating of the bulbs is relatively unimportant as all fluorescent bulbs are deficient in red; 5000K is fine.
For general illumination in a shop you want about 70 footcandles per ft.sq.; for task lighting, around 100-150.
Lumens and footcandles are measuring two different things; however, for your purpose, you can consider them to be 1:1.
The intensity of light varies inversely to the square of the distance. __________________
Procedure
1. Add up the total potential lumens from all bulbs
2. Divide the total by the area of your shop. You now have the maximum light AT ONE FOOT FROM THE BULBS
3. Apply the inverse square law to determine light at work surface height. a. at two feet from bulb, light will be 1/2...at 4', 1/4...etc.
--

dadiOH
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On Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:34:16 AM UTC-7, dadiOH wrote:

That's overly pessimistic; firstly, the square law doesn't apply to four-foot-long fixtures until you're over four feet away. Second, the light will reflect from walls and floor and such, it isn't escaping into an infinite void.
End-to-end fixtures (basically a long line of light) is best scaled by an inverse-R law, not by an inverse-R-squared law.
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dadiOH wrote:

Let's see: (1) 2700 lumens x 22 bulbs = 59,400 lumens (2) 59,400 lumesn/500 ft^2 = 118.8 lumes/ft^2. (3) If my lights are at 8 ft and I work at 4 ft, then I'm supposed to divide the 118.8 by 4 (or 16, I think--Pi are square), giving 29.7 or 7.425 lumens.
I think it makes more sense to perform the calculations "locally" (in the areas where it matters) and I may do so. But, for the sake of discussion, I assume the 118 figure the one to use in your general guidelines below?
> For general illumination in a shop you want about 70 footcandles per > ft.sq.; for task lighting, around 100-150.
Perhaps you can help me resolve and/or interpret my calculation in (3)?
Thanks! Bill
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Bill wrote:

All is fine when you divided by four. Come to think of it that is a bit low as before dividing the figure is for it the light at one foot from the bulb so the fall off to five feet is less than 1/4.
Keep in mind that 70 gives a brightly lighted area. The last time I worked in an office environment was 1958 - the city room of a newspaper - and I would guess that it had about that illumination, maybe somewhat less.
IME, your 22 bulbs will be more than ample. In my 500 ft shop there are 6 bulbs in the center area, and 2 bulbs at each end. The center is just fine but the two ends could use two more bulbs each but are OK for me as there is lots of daylight there.
--

dadiOH
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Well, now I have 3 fixtures and new bulbs like Leon has, I think (GE, 32w, 5000K, 2800 Lumens). So I'm going to assemble one of the biggest sawhorsies you ever saw, using "old-style sawhorse hinges and full-length tubafours spanned by an 8' tubafour. We (I) will find out, whether 3 fixtures in the span of 8 feet produces "too much" light or not!!! : ) Better to find out now, than after the fixtures are screwed down. Larry recommended an experiment of this sort back when there was snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...
In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought (*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect eye-balling it will give me decent results. I thought to put the 3 fixtures across the middle of the ceiling first, and then put 3 more on each side of them (making a 3 by 3 grid). Larry will probably say I've over-thought it, but I think my approach will produce better results than if I just worked from one row to the next.
It seemed to go from 50 degrees to 85 degree very quickly in my locale (IN). Plenty warm enough for joint compound to set now! : )
The remarkable phenomenon to me, that I've already experienced a few times in the last few days, and I sort of forgot about since last summer, is how once I get started on the work--say even by just moving stuff around, something else kicks in and takes over and it doesn't seem as much like work.
I was thinking about this while driving today. Surely influenced by my recent reading of the book "Shop Class as Soulcraft" (Matthew Crawford). The phenomenon may have something to do with the personal process of changing physical stuff. Jokingly I thought (yeah, I tell jokes to myself...), even if you miss the nail and hit your finger with the hammer, it may be more satisfying than if you never had a chance to swing the hammer. In earlier years, I earned several blood blisters...lol..none lately. Surely, I just cursed myself... : )
Bill
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"Bill" wrote in message
Well, now I have 3 fixtures and new bulbs like Leon has, I think (GE, 32w, 5000K, 2800 Lumens). So I'm going to assemble one of the biggest sawhorsies you ever saw, using "old-style sawhorse hinges and full-length tubafours spanned by an 8' tubafour. We (I) will find out, whether 3 fixtures in the span of 8 feet produces "too much" light or not!!! : ) Better to find out now, than after the fixtures are screwed down. Larry recommended an experiment of this sort back when there was snow on the ground but it's hard for me to keep up with him. ; ) I hope he's got his cantilevered-roof project completed by now...
How about screwing in a simple eye-bolt or hook and attach the fixture's with some string hanging from the hook, to see how they are going to work.
In a startlingly-related domestic item, today my wife brought home some sort of laserbeam shooter to help put up drapes. I thought (*click*)--that's just what I need to use to help get my fixtures lined up (in rows and columns) like "ducks in a row"! I had been planning to stretch some twine I have. Question: Are there any techniques that go along with this sort of technology to insure right angles? I expect eye-balling it will give me decent results. I thought to put the 3 fixtures across the middle of the ceiling first, and then put 3 more on each side of them (making a 3 by 3 grid). Larry will probably say I've over-thought it, but I think my approach will produce better results than if I just worked from one row to the next.
I simply looked at which direction the ceiling joists ran and used a stack of rare earth magnets to locate them. I measured from the wall to insure that the fixtures were parallel to a wall.
It seemed to go from 50 degrees to 85 degree very quickly in my locale (IN). Plenty warm enough for joint compound to set now! : )
Oh keep in mind that these lamps will take a short period of time to come up to full brightness in cool weather.
The remarkable phenomenon to me, that I've already experienced a few times in the last few days, and I sort of forgot about since last summer, is how once I get started on the work--say even by just moving stuff around, something else kicks in and takes over and it doesn't seem as much like work.
I was thinking about this while driving today. Surely influenced by my recent reading of the book "Shop Class as Soulcraft" (Matthew Crawford). The phenomenon may have something to do with the personal process of changing physical stuff. Jokingly I thought (yeah, I tell jokes to myself...), even if you miss the nail and hit your finger with the hammer, it may be more satisfying than if you never had a chance to swing the hammer. In earlier years, I earned several blood blisters...lol..none lately. Surely, I just cursed myself... : )
Bill
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Bill wrote:

After experiencing other places, I came to the conclusion that Indiana isn't habitable until June. Which is why I left. Even June wasn't fail safe as I recall snow flurries in June while riding a bike home at the close of school.
--

dadiOH
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"dadiOH" wrote:

---------------------------------- But summers are GREAT, both days of it, July 4th AND July 5th.
Lew
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HUH? The last "roof" I did was the PT and steel roofing over my 8x12' patio.

If she didn't get you a Straitline Intersect (or equiv) have her go do the right thing. If you want to shoot perpendicular lines, you need a 2-line laser. http://goo.gl/DDsI2 or 5-line? http://goo.gl/Bsdox The Bill, a 42-line laser, is in the works. Patience, please.

If it ain't thunk, rethunk, double-rethunk, tossed around, batted back and forth, laid up, drawn out, and hammered into place at least 'lebenty seven times, Bill wasn't there. He's a glue and brad and belt and suspenders and chain and tape and string kind of guy. ;) But he does nice work.

That's called "focus". It's what's called A Good Thing(tm).

I'll have to start that again some day soon. You really have to pay attention to him to "get it".
-- Woe be to him that reads but one book. -- George Herbert
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Larry Jaques wrote:

Yep, that's the project I meant. Has that project been signed-off on yet?

I think I'll have to get by with one laser and a framing square--or like Leon said, measuring from a wall. I don't trust my walls as much as I do a laser though. Unfortunately, my mom gave away my dad's transit (it had no laser)..lol, I have his slide rule! ;)

LOL...Gosh, can I put you down as a reference? I believe from indirectly-related experience that design and development is a "circular" process (not that many contractors would probably care to admit it). James Krenov probably used a spherical process! ;) I'm pleased that you are willing to give me credit for doing "nice work" even though I haven't provided you with many samples. My neighbor, a plumber, told me his reputation is on the line on every piece of work he does. As one of my harshest critics, I think LH is even tougher! :) Who ya gonna call? --the guy who just hammers it up there (he, coincidentally, used to live where I do now), or the guys who shows you a few SketchUp models first (Swingman and Leon)? : ) You may have heard the analogy that begins, "Quality is like buying oats, if you want nice clean, fresh oats...".

IMO, Those parts are the best parts of the book, in particular where he has included thoughtful excerpts from the works of other scholars. I thought some of the middle chapters contained an awful lot of "padding", but I think the book began and ended strong. As an academic with such strong credentials, I thought he should have known to cut, re-cut, double-cut and edit again much of what he had written for the sake of a better book. Unfortunately, he probably came under the pressure of satisfying a publishers ideals (certain number of pages, etc). As someone who has reviewed more than one book, IMO, I think I could have helped make this one better. The publisher may have figured the difference wouldn't sell any more copies... I guess that's part of publication in the 21st century. By most measures, the book was darn successful! You, or even I, could probably take the word "focus" from your previous post, and embellish around it to a very insightful new chapter, more interesting than some extant in the book!
Bill
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Oh, yeah, months ago. I had a couple days without rain and gat 'er dun.

I want pictures if you decide to try the slipstick method. Color pics!

You're right. I take it back. <snort>

I first heard that in the mid '70s when I was a QA inspector.

I got a dozen pages in and found my mind wandering so I put it back on the shelf. When I'm done with W.E.B. Griffin's _The Corps_ tomes, I may pick it back up. (I have 3.5 to go.)

I'll address that once I've read the book. Remind me, won't you?
-- If we attend continually and promptly to the little that we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler
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Larry Jaques wrote:

Wow! Did you serve in the marines?
Bill
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No, I lucked out of service in Vietnam by moving back from school in AZ to home in CA. The CA draft board was full up when I got back. I was an Air Force brat. Dad retired after his lifer term +6 was up.
But I got hooked on Griffin when a friend recommended the President's Agent books. They were so good, I started the Corps series. I'll probably continue on with the Badge of Honor series, too. Our library has only the books on tape for the Brotherhood of War series. This guy has written over forty books. I finished the entire Louis L'Amour set a few months ago, along with some McMurtry and Elmer Kelton.
With no television to infect me, I get more projects done and read lots of books for fun. I have an entire 3x7' bookshelf as an inbox for gardening, DIY, sci-fi, western, military fiction, woodworking, and metalworking books. Slowly but surely...
-- If we attend continually and promptly to the little that we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler
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Have you read any by Cormac McCarthy?
I've enjoyed them all.
Max
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Larry Jaques wrote:

That Griffin guy must write dern good! Come on now, is military fiction really better than a "Rocky" movie? ;)

I enjoy trying to keep up with my inbox too. Aren't you working on your musicianship too? We have been discussing the idea of dropping Comcast cable-tv service in our household (when our introductory "triple-play discount" runs out soon). That doesn't mean that we'd be television-free though. I just recently started exploring my options. I could get by well-enough with MSNBC and PBS. Throw in a local network for weather and JJ, and everyone is basically happy. I'll see if you can guess what JJ stands for.
Bill

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