Festool comes through for me.

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wrote: [snipperized for my convenience]

Yea... that 'almost' tool. It's a tricky price-point, that's for sure, but what I know about Festool, they're not really aftrer home cabinetiers. (You like my new word? Cabinetier. Pronounced kabinetjay..... like The Peppier (pepjay) the guy who comes around in the restaurant and dangles that pepper mill over your plate..)

He knows we're kidding him. If he buys one, I'll be jealous.
r
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<<1) It brags about using the Domino as a registration device, comparing it mainly to biscuits. I'll give them that one, but I don't know how far I would go. The tool cuts one mortise perfectly, but them you cut an oversize mortise on the other side to allow for "inconsistencies". How do oversize mortises make better registrations? I haven't ever used a mechanical fastener to line my work anyway; I use a pencil mark<<
If I'm not mistaken they mean "oversize" in mortise _width_, which would have no bearing on face to face registration, not thickness, which would.
This mortise width wider than the tenon ostensibly gives you some wiggle room to say, align the top of an apron with the top of a leg and still not weaken the joint, or to use multiple side by side mortises without undue precision/fuss.

what it is". Again, from their FAQ:
Q: Can I choose my own individual mortise width? A: The Domino joiner has 3 preset mortise widths that work with the Domino tenons. It is not possible to cut other mortise widths.
I can't see a grand for a machine that cuts only three sizes of mortises. I know Festool will think that it has provided all the popular sizes used today, But for grand, I would like a little flexibility.<<
The widest mortise is 1 1/4", but the widest tenon is, IIRC, 1".
The largest tenon is apparently 3/8" thick, by 7/8" wide, by 2" long.
That begs the question of what is keeping the woodworker from making his own loose tenons, as I do when using the Multi-router?
Does anyone know the radius of the curve on the mortises? IOW, which radius roundover bit would you use to make your own loose tenons, would be on the questions I would want to have an answer to prior to buying.
While it may not appear important, making loose tenons that fit well is not all that quick/easy of a task to setup initially. DAMHIKT.
The biggest limitation that I see with the Domino thus far is that you're limited to a mortise "depth" of 1" ... I don't think I could live with that for many chairs and large tables.
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Does having a precise exact fitting loose tenon add much to the strength of the joint? How much extra gluing surface to you get from that corner compared to the flat sides of the loose tenon? Not much.

But would the ability to put four 1" wide by 1" long loose tenons into a leaf/apron assembly at each corner be as good or better or more than strong enough than one 2" wide by 2" long loose tenon? 8" of glue surface on both examples. The Domino can cut the eight mortices for the first example in seconds, literally.
But for large pieces such as trestle tables, I would prefer a longer, thicker, bigger tenon than the Domino is capable of. But you could start the mortise with the Domino, and then use a top bearing guided plunge router bit to make it deeper. Domino cuts the template to follow. Still very fast I imagine.

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not

Obviously the "long grain to long grain" 'glue surface' match of the tenon sides with the mortise sides is the most important aspect for a good joint.
A little wiggle room between the width of the tenon, and length of the mortise, whether square or rounded, won't cause too much of a problem as long as the sides fit with the proper snugness (generally thought to be sufficient if they go together with a "hand pressure" fit that won't fall out under its own weight)
However, in actual practice it is worth noting that a bad match of the round-over portion of a "loose tenon" with the rounded corners of a routered mortise will often cause problems with the fit in the mortise to the extent that you do end up with a too loose, "loose" tenon along its sides as well, even if you've previously taken great pains in matching tenon thickness to mortise and bit "width".
Much of this phenomenon comes about, at least in my observation, in the variations/imprecision in the routing process itself in routing mortises that are precisely the same width/thickness as the router bit used.
AAMOF, I currently own/use a Multi-Router, use loose/floating tenon joinery almost exclusively these days, and find it can be a quite fussy setup, requiring more precision/trial and error than you would expect on first glance, to mill "loose tenon" stock that fits as well as a traditional M&T joint.
IOW, it not always "mill the stock to 3/8" thick and use a 3/16th's round-over bit and you're done" operation as is often described when explaining loose/floating tenon joinery. A good deal of shop time can be spent in doing this, at least to my satisfaction ... and lousy fit, lousy joint.
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Does having a precise exact fitting loose tenon add much to the strength of the joint? How much extra gluing surface to you get from that corner compared to the flat sides of the loose tenon? Not much.
While the loose tennon is far superior and stronger than most other joints and I agree that a tennon not filling the width is probably not too important, to answer your question about the extra gluing surface, Because the sides are round they will add more surface area than if all sides were flat. Taking the 10 x 24 x 50 domino tennon for an example, the short sides collectively have a length of 31.4mm as compared to both wide sides having collectively 48mm. So the narrower sides are a significant amount of the possible glue surface. IMHO this does not add much strength to keep the tennon from sliding in the mortise as much as it would to keep the tennon from pulling out of the mortise.
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That is indeed a limitation. I am a bit surprised by that. (Maybe I am looking for excuses to hang onto my g-note)
In most small applications, such as face-frames and other domestic jobs, biscuits have been doing the job when pocket screws weren't.
Frankly, in order for me to spend that kind of money, it would have to add to my capabilities. So far, I see nothing surpassing anything that I already do.
Sure...there are the curves, the novelty. I don't think anybody here would argue the 'coolness' of this machine.
But how is it going to do my job better.
The jury just ordered chinese food.
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But if the Domino can do what you currently do in 1/10th or 1/100th the time, is it worth it? Speed in doing a decent, acceptable loose tenon joint is the key to the Domino.
You mention domestic jobs and biscuits and pocket screws. For domestic stuff, such as shop and garage and shed cabinets, these are fine. But for building an entertainment center out of solid walnut, are you going to use pocket screws? Not me. Would you trust biscuits on an entertainment center with $1000 of solid walnut wood in it and XX hours of your time? Not me.
How long does it take you to cut the joints on a simple solid walnut end table? Four legs, top, four aprons. The Domino can do it in seconds/minutes.
The speed to cut joints is the Domino advantage. Not the ability to cut mortises. I have a router and mortise chisels and drill press to cut mortises. But none of them are quick. So I look for alternative joints to use. Just like people use a table saw for cutting wood when they also have a hand saw and hand plane. You can use a hand saw and hand plane to rip and crosscut wood to whatever dimension you like. Don't need a table saw.

Faster. Easier. You will use the appropriate mortise and tenon joint more often than a weaker or less aesthetic joint.

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For the exact same task that wold be a correct assumption. IIRC Robatoy does a not of cabinet work and Face frames can be assembled just as quickly using pocket hole screws with out having to wait on the glue to dry.
It all depends on what kind of work you are doing and how much you are being paid for the job as to whether the Domino is a ecomomically good decision.
Snip

In the long run the Domino is much slower than pocket hole screws and requires lots of clamps and waiting for the glue to cure. On cabinet Face frames pocket hole screws are plenty strong.
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

So how do I use it to make the "appropriate mortise and tenon joint" for Craftsman style furniture in which the tenon passes all the way through and is wedged externally?
Limited utility. If it does what you need it's really nice, but if you don't _need_ what it does then it's an expensive extravagance.

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wrote:

Typically the Craftsman style furniture has through tennons that are of the same wood as the project, not loose tennons. The Dominio is designed to be used with loose tennons. Even with a multorouter to cut through mortises, you would not want to use loose tennons and especially those made from Beech.

Correct. Expensice extravagance, for some a cabinet saw is an expensive extravagance.
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wrote:
1) It brags about using the Domino as a registration device, comparing it mainly to biscuits. I'll give them that one, but I don't know how far I would go. The tool cuts one mortise perfectly, but them you cut an oversize mortise on the other side to allow for "inconsistencies". How do oversize mortises make better registrations? I haven't ever used a mechanical fastener to line my work anyway; I use a pencil mark
From what I understand the first mortise is cut on both sides of the joint to an exact fit and location, then the next in line mortises are cut a bit "wider" to accomidate for registration being a bit off.
Q: Do I have to use dust extraction? A: We strongly recommend it. If dust is not extracted, it will clog the mortise.
3) Reading all the info, I was surprised to see that they require powered dust and chip removal. I know a lot of folks here have the necessary dust/chip removal equipment in their shops, but I know a lot don't. But I am thinking of dragging this thing out to a job, on site. To me, hand held, portable tools should be easy to transport and use. I sure wouldn't be thrilled about loading up this tool and having to load a shop vac as its required companion. If I am working in client's parking lot, or on a client's driveway, I don't care where the dust goes, I simply sweep up at the end of the day as it easier for me. I don't routinely take a shop vac to the job, although I do as needed. I am not really up for loading up and bringing out a complete "system" to put the face on a cabinet, or to join a few shelves
I agree with loading the issues concerning the loading of seperate pieces of equipment however Festool Systainers are stackable and attach to each outher. IIRC they will attach on top of "their" vacum cleaner. Basically it all becomes a single unit that you can roll around.
Q: Can I choose my own individual mortise width? A: The Domino joiner has 3 preset mortise widths that work with the Domino tenons. It is not possible to cut other mortise widths.
I can't see a grand for a machine that cuts only three sizes of mortises. I know Festool will think that it has provided all the popular sizes used today, But for grand, I would like a little flexibility.
I think they may be shooting themselves in the foot on that answer. I would think that if you wanted a wider mortise you would simply move the tool over an inch or so, or what ever the requirement would be.
Besides... I just spent $500 on an F'in chainsaw! =:0
Totally Oh....... MY....... GOD!!!!! LOL... How smooth of a cut does it leave? LOL...

Well, I sure got a chuckle out of that one. Nothing wrong with good old fashioned tool lust.
You nailed it. LUST.
Please post a review when you have it !!
Unless I have a weak moment at the tool show this weekend I'll probably not be getting one.
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"Leon" wrote in message

not
Just keep repeating "Hello, my name is Leon. I'm a toolaholic!"
... you'll be OK.
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If it had a Laguna brand name instead of some fruity name like Festool, it would already be in his toolbox. I'm sure he's already planning to make the tenons on his bandsaw instead of buying them.
Bob
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LOL. too bad the BS won't cut mortises. Actually the tennons for the Domino are pretty reasonable. You can get the largest ones for as little as 13 cents each. The small ones as little as 4 cents each.
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wrote:

But the speed of the Domino for creating good joints is applicable to anyone. Even those using the cheapest tools they can find. Does the ability to turn out a complete piece of furniture in an afternoon matter to you? The speed and convenience is the key to this tool.

No need to ever use the wider mortise widths unless you are just using the tool for algnment purposes such as a biscuit jointer does with panels. Even then you can use the official width mortise and it will still align easily. It is precise. The inconsistencies come from the operator. If you line it up with the pencil marks, just cut the official width mortise.

The April Wood magazine will have a comparison of the Domino against biscuits against something called the DowelMax. Turns out the DowelMax is stronger because the two dowels used create a bigger loose tenon with the wood in between the dowels. But in any case, the Domino loose tenons are more than strong enough. Why aren't you raving about how weak the loose tenons cut with the MultiCo router machine? Or the weakness of the loose tenons cut with the tables that attach to the European combination machines? Didn't Fine Woodworkign do some kind of test with various joints including loose tenons some time ago? Or one of the other magazines recently? Once a tenon is glued into the wood, its a tenon just like those cut from the wood itself. Its been said many times that the glue is stronger than the wood itself. So maybe the loose tenon is actually stronger than the integral tenon.

Biscuit jointers work nicer with a shop vac hooked to them. One of the trade offs of the Domino. It needs dust extraction. Most won't find this much a downside. Most folks who have gotten into the regime of using dust collection don't like using anything without it. Like ear plugs or eye protection. Once you use them, you don't go back. I try never to operate my circular saw without ear protection.

You can use the Domino to cut ANY width or height mortise you want. Just do like a biscuit jointer and slide it along the edge and keep cutting. You do know you can cut longer biscuit jaints than the #20 size? Why do you think this would not work with the Domino? For height just move the fence up or down a bit and cut some more. Just like with a biscuit jointer, just move the fence and you can cut slots thicker than the biscuit blade. Pretty simple. Only thing you cannot do with the Domino is cut deeper mortises than 28mm. Kind of a limitation.

Do you make face frames? Rail and stiles? Drawer dividers? Drawer boxes? Attach sides to tops and bottoms of casework? It can pretty much replace about any current joint you are using.

You will have to use it at a shop, store to appreciate it. Whether it is worth $1000 roughly to you, ?????

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On Mar 28, 1:32 pm, " snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com"
SNIP

Wow, Russel, I didn't mean to get you all fired up. I didn't say the machine had no value, or that I was unable to see any.
Obviously you are very keenly interested in this machine, and if you buy one I hope you will post a review. My post was not meant to be a comprehensive, comparative look at all types and aspects of different machine joinery and the machines that make them. It was just a comment on the Festool Domino.
Like I said in my post, and to amplify what I said, if I were stuck in a shop or manufacturing plant all day, this might be a good tool. Since I do remodeling and repairs, most of my work takes me to a jobsite, whether to repair, build or rebuild. I don't know how handy that would be to put a face on a cabinet and wait for it to dry, or assemble some other kind of cabinet components that I would have to wait for glue to dry. Now we're back at the same thing as biscuit (waiting for glue to dry) except with a stronger joint.
And if this machine is used as an actual mechanical contruction method that relies on the Domino as the sole joining technique and material, you will indeed be waiting for glue to dry. (Think pocket screws here).
I am sure the Domino will find its way into many a shop and be used with great speed and delight.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Robert
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wrote:

You are thinking of the Domino as a carpentry tool. Not a furniture woodworking too. Most of my woodworking tools are not useful or used when I am doing carpentry and remodeling. My hammer, reciprocating saw, skil saw, get used a lot. Mud pans, taping knives, utility knife, elbow grease, drywall screws, etc. are also used a lot. Lots of drywall screws. Jointer, planer, drill press, routers, etc. do not. Table saw is useful for both carpentry and furniture woodworking. Clamps are handy for carpentry but mainly used in furniture making. I don't think the Domino would have any benefit for carpentry work. More drywall screws and a second driver would be a better investment for carpentry work.
I'm looking at it. Have not decided to buy one yet. I have until May 31 to get the special pricing. HaHa. The thing that appeals to me is the speed and ease. If it can get me to make furniture joints faster, I will be more likely to make the furniture and acually produce something. Even if its just a simple end table that costs $50. Actually making the table could justify the $1000 to me because it removes a road block to actually getting me to make something. I can make and have made mortise and tenon joints. Router and U shaped jig and lots of positioning and clamping. Mortise chisels too. Table saw for tenons on the ends of rails. Shoulder plane to trim them to fit. Lot of time and effort. Domino can't add to my ability to make a joint. But it might allow me to do the joint so quick I can actually be enticed to make something. Might be worth it to ME.
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On Mar 30, 10:09 am, " snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com"

A very valid point. I appreciate the candor. There is no doubt that if I had a Domino in my arsenal, I'd use it for things that I am now passing on. Yet, I manage to keep myself busy WAY more than I had originally envisioned when I sold my business and retired.
Ya right.
What I need to add to my arsenal is the ability to say no to people. With a Domino in my kit, that would be harder again. "Sure, I can whip up a few loose tenons here and do that..."
It is all about priorities with me. I'd rather drop a g-note into my computer hardware. That doesn't mean I will never buy a Domino...I mean, come-on...who doesn't want one?
r
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LOL, heck Robatoy, computer hardware is obsolete almost before you install it. The domino will probably last much much longer than that. LOL
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wrote:
But the speed of the Domino for creating good joints is applicable to anyone. Even those using the cheapest tools they can find. Does the ability to turn out a complete piece of furniture in an afternoon matter to you? The speed and convenience is the key to this tool.
Well I am kicking the tires on both sides of the car concerning the Domino. I value pro and con views. While I agree that this tool will speed production dramatically, turning out a complete piece of furniture in an afternoon is still not achievable 99% or the time. Additionally, :~) for those using the cheapest tools they can find, the Domino would probably be an abomination of excess to the thrifty.
No need to ever use the wider mortise widths unless you are just using the tool for algnment purposes such as a biscuit jointer does with panels. Even then you can use the official width mortise and it will still align easily. It is precise. The inconsistencies come from the operator. If you line it up with the pencil marks, just cut the official width mortise.
Sn....ip.
Biscuit jointers work nicer with a shop vac hooked to them. One of the trade offs of the Domino. It needs dust extraction. Most won't find this much a downside. Most folks who have gotten into the regime of using dust collection don't like using anything without it. Like ear plugs or eye protection. Once you use them, you don't go back. I try never to operate my circular saw without ear protection.
Actually the dust collection for the Domino would probably be the deal breaker. I use dust collection but have been informed that a shop vac type collector is necessary over a dust collector. I got rid of the noisy shop vac and will not go back. Putting out an additional $250-$300 for a good and quiet shop vac/Festool brand is way more than I am wanting to swallow.
You can use the Domino to cut ANY width or height mortise you want. Just do like a biscuit jointer and slide it along the edge and keep cutting. You do know you can cut longer biscuit jaints than the #20 size? Why do you think this would not work with the Domino?
Because Domino states only 3 sizes. I agree however that simply moving the tool over to a new spot will accomplish a wider tennon.
For height just move the fence up or down a bit and cut some more. Just like with a biscuit jointer, just move the fence and you can cut slots thicker than the biscuit blade. Pretty simple. Only thing you cannot do with the Domino is cut deeper mortises than 28mm. Kind of a limitation.
And that kinda sucks if you are building massive furniture.
Do you make face frames? Rail and stiles? Drawer dividers? Drawer boxes? Attach sides to tops and bottoms of casework? It can pretty much replace about any current joint you are using.
Agreed, it would be great in this area. The problem though is that it will not replace a mortiser for the big jobs. The Domino is more of an addition to a good collection.
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