Festool comes through for me.

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One of my guys was sanding a Meganite top, getting ready for delivery that afternoon when he called me on my cell to tell me that THE SANDER had quit suddenly. He had already done all the basic checks to see if he had power everywhere. I was on a site, I had the Fein with me, so that wasn't going to do him any good. But the top he was working on, was the final delivery of a 'whole house' order, so it was important to me to get this resolved. Did I tell you this was on a Friday?... but you already knew that, right? <G> I quickly return to the shop in order to finish with the Fein, then to go back and finish the seam I was doing at that same house. I quickly opened the tail of the RO 150 Festool, to see that the spring had popped on one the brushes stopping the thing dead in its tracks. Friday, noon...I'm not completely dead in the water..but I decided then and there to immediatly order a new set of brushes. I knew there was a plastic envelope inside the Festool (Systainer) box, which I thought would have the service department numbers etc. And there, inside the envelope, taped neatly in a corner, a little plastic pouch with 2 new brushes. Got everything done on time, made it to the bank and made the bi- weekly pay-roll. Pretty cool, eh?
What are those brushes worth? In this case, a whole lot more than what they normally sell them for. Anyway, I thought I'd share something positive.
r--->who gives his customers a neatly finished trivet, made from the same material as their countertop, with Magic Sponge attached to it. Somehow that makes the customer happier than with a $ 3000.00 countertop.
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This still falls under the classification of a Festool gloat, so you still suck. ;)

Lagniappe. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lagniappe
Those little freebies are received like you are handing them gold. Knock together _anything_ from the scraps and hand it to them and they'll be telling their friends about it.
Bagel stores routinely give a bakers dozen - thirteen bagels. Since it's routine, you hear people say, "Hey! You forgot my free bagel!" though they never _thank_ the guy for the free bagel every other time it's given.
R
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Cool. I wonder if all the Festools come with that extra set of brushes. BTY I got to do the touchy feely thing with the Domino on Friday. No testing but I got to see a sample of the joint, pretty impressive. Still, it's going to cost a small fortune to get one with a decent assortment of tennons. IIRC $920+ tax. And then I was informed that a dust collector will not be able to be keep up with the Domino. I wonder if that is true or not. Seems a shop vacuum is the tool of choice for this situation but again, I wonder. I know choking down the 4" hose limits its flow but not so much if the choke is at the tool rather than away from the tool. I still get pretty good flow at the router table, disk sander, and spindle sander. I think I'll experiment with my PC plate jointer and see if that holds water. The dust port is almost the same size as on the Domino.
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Also called A THOUSAND BUCKS. To paraphrase Larry The Cable Guy "I don't care who you are, but that is a lot of money right there."...but dammit, I know they've got a winner there. I hate those sunsabitches, because they have my number and they keep dialing it.

A good shop vac has a lot more 'pull' than a DC. Guys use the Fein Turbos as hold-down for smaller CNC routers... a job one would never trust to a DC. DC is for large volume, like a clean-up after a pillow- fight. The ShopVac will lift up a bowling ball. Even though the wattage may read the same, the ratio of current vs voltage does not. My Fein does a fabulous job on both the Kreg jig and the biscuit jointer..way better than the 2 HP DC. The Fein, however, is useless on my planer. It's the fan vs airhose argument in reverse.
>I know choking down the 4" hose limits its

The displacement of air in a Vac is far more positive than a DC.. the DC will just cavitate and slap around air. This is going under the assumption that we're talking a real shop-vac, not one of those 6.5 peak HP (5 amp motor, ohhh yea) from Harbour Fright.

A THOUSAND BUCKS, Leon....A THOUSAND BUCKS!!!
LOL
r---> who is looking to find a 'disposable' THOUSAND BUCKS. I also wonder who the first one is, in here, that's going to drop the g-note.
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Yep. And shipping because no Festool tools are stock items. All are ordered especially for that customer. To make that person feel special. Festool doesn't want any bum with a grand of disposable income in his pocket walking into the store and taking one of those special green tools home without proper vetting and going through the iniation procedure.
And then I was informed that a dust

The official Festool shop vacs work fine with the Domino. And other Festool tools. I suspect any shop vac would work just fine. Domino takes the official Festool hose so it would be easiest, if not cheapest, to get a Festool hose and hook it to whatever shop vac you choose to use. In one of the various reviews, it was stressed that some kind of dust collection, via shop vac, is required for the Domino to work properly. $25 Sears vac would work fine once you got the right size hose onto it.
I know choking down the 4" hose limits its

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That is not correct. My dealer is a stocking dealer. He has several sanders in stock and will have the Domino.
Actually I could have bought just about any of the equipment back in December when he had an open house and the Festool rep brought a supply of all the tools.
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Leon - I think Woodcraft has them on sale for $660 + $200 for bits.
Scary.
Is anyone here having joint failures or specializing in installations that would warrant the SPECIFIC use of a Domino? For a G I would have to join about a lumberyard's worth of lumber to make me happy.
With tools for dowels, loose dowels, full mortising machines, tenon jigs, 4 - 5 sized of bisquits, router jigs, pocket screws, hammer and chisels, table saw joints, specialized router table router bits for joining, and on and on... where does this thing really fit in?
I have not doubt it is a fine tool, but wonder what group of tools it would have to replace to fit the price tag. I watched the video on their site, and it looks like the connectors they use are the highlight. Small, solid, striated to hold the glue, and look like good quality.
I had a jig plan for a small router that would cut that very same rounded slot for loose dowels, and then there was that other set of connectorst that looked like 4 dowels sitting next to each other that the router would cut the slot for. It certainly wasn't as quick or elegant as the Domino, but I never used that kind of joint except for a few projects.
I think of how often that tool would be the >only< solution, or when I would be in such a hurry that I needed the extra time, and I'm not seeing a grand for a dedicted, one use tool. Then I saw the bits cost $50 or so a piece! Then, no generic bisquits! OUCH!
No doubt if I was site building cabinets like we did in the old days I would have to have one of those when I could afford it. But for field or shop work... I dunno. What did I miss?
Has anyone seen any joint tests to back up their claims of strength?
Robert
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Domino is simply "loose/floating tenon" joinery which testing has shown to be roughly equivalent in strength to traditional M & T ... perhaps a shade less so, but not enough to be a factor for most applications.
--
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Last update: 2/20/07
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That makes sense. It looks like this is a really convenient "beadlock" installation. IIRC, that kind of joinery was pretty strong.
Robert
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Yeah but then you really want the one that sells for $720. That one is a kit that addes 2 jigs for helping you cut mortises on the ends of very narrow stock and a 2 piece jig for cutting mortises accurately spaced along the edge of a long board or panel. The $660 model does not have those two jig/adapters.

That completely valid and level headed view of the usefulness of this tool probably fits for 99 % of the wood workers. I think I may be different though. LOL Its like buying a Mercedes of BMW when a Chevy will do perfectly well.

It probably replaces all of them except fot the dowel jigs. I know I wold probably never use my mortiser and or plate jointer if I had a Domino. If I knew that it would cut a mortise in a compound angled surface I think I would take a much closer look. So far no one has been able to show me how this would be accomplished.

I think if you were consider ing a "Multico" mortiser and a "Lamelo" plate jointer that the Domino would be a very good alternative.

No, the bits are not quite "that" expensive. They fall in the $27-$30 each depending on the size. The $200 you mentioned earlier if for 4, 1 of each sized bits, 1100 assorteded tennons and a Systainer container. The individual sized packages of tennons are pretty reasonable IMHO.

Have you seen one in person, touched one, felt its curves, seen the details of all the levers and buttons? Have you picked it up, noticed how the green and black compliment the silver trim? And don't get me started on the carrying case. ;~)
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Yup... Leon is toast... Tell us how you like it after it shows up in a couple of days.
*EG*
r
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Yeah.... he's screwed!
Robert
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wrote:

Some people would call his irrational state being in love.
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I make picture frames and tray surrounds in 1/2" thick stock, using a biscuiter. Can't do that on a Domino, as the mortice would be too wide.
If I made more chairs then I'd use a $1000 Domino with loose tenons. At present I use some of the fixed machines in the guy over the road's workshop: an $8000 window / doorframe tenoner and a $1000+ morticer.
I'd buy a Domino _if_ I made more pieces from narrow square stock where I needed tenons and couldn't use a longer biscuit.
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"Leon" wrote in message

You are different ... you have a MR at your beck and call 24/7!
That's OK though, it's not a bad idea to supplement a _collective_ arsenal of available weapons. :)
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LOL, Well I certainly appreciate the generous offer and as usual what's mine is also at your disposal.

No, kidding. You never know when I might need to use the MR and you may be using it to cut a mortice or two. ;~)
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SNIP

Fair. Once you get to that level of quality machine, I would sure think this one would be in the running. Putting it in that context, it is a good point.
It is raining here, and my work for today was all outside. So I took the time to go watch the videos on the Festool site again. It will adjust exactly as a biscuit machines and will do multiple angles, so you should be OK addressing compound angles.
Most of the time I do well when reading. I read instructions, prep sheets, technical information, etc., closely. So of course I read the FAQs on the machine. Certainly, the Q&As were from them.
1) It brags about using the Domino as a registration device, comparing it mainly to biscuits. I'll give them that one, but I don't know how far I would go. The tool cuts one mortise perfectly, but them you cut an oversize mortise on the other side to allow for "inconsistencies". How do oversize mortises make better registrations? I haven't ever used a mechanical fastener to line my work anyway; I use a pencil mark
2) Seems like they are going after the biscuit joiner in a big way. However, they make it abundantly clear in their literature that they are comparing their Dominos to crappy biscuits, the ones made from compressed wood chips. I bought one bag of those on Amazon, and after seeing so many broken pieces in the bottom of the bag, I threw the all out.
But it has been so long since I actually looked at a biscuit, I went out to the shop and pulled out my PC clear container of #20s, and broke a few. As I thought, all solid wood. While we all know biscuits are not reknown for their strength, I think it is important to compare apples to apples. This makes me even more interested in seeing a strength comparison to other joints. I have NO doubt the Domino will win in a lot of cases, but by how much?

Q: Do I have to use dust extraction? A: We strongly recommend it. If dust is not extracted, it will clog the mortise.
3) Reading all the info, I was surprised to see that they require powered dust and chip removal. I know a lot of folks here have the necessary dust/chip removal equipment in their shops, but I know a lot don't. But I am thinking of dragging this thing out to a job, on site. To me, hand held, portable tools should be easy to transport and use. I sure wouldn't be thrilled about loading up this tool and having to load a shop vac as its required companion. If I am working in client's parking lot, or on a client's driveway, I don't care where the dust goes, I simply sweep up at the end of the day as it easier for me. I don't routinely take a shop vac to the job, although I do as needed. I am not really up for loading up and bringing out a complete "system" to put the face on a cabinet, or to join a few shelves
4) I know this is picky, and maybe like any dedicated machine, "it is what it is". Again, from their FAQ:
Q: Can I choose my own individual mortise width? A: The Domino joiner has 3 preset mortise widths that work with the Domino tenons. It is not possible to cut other mortise widths.
I can't see a grand for a machine that cuts only three sizes of mortises. I know Festool will think that it has provided all the popular sizes used today, But for grand, I would like a little flexibility.
Looks to me though, that this could be a really neat shop tool if you knew exactly what you were going to do with it. The Taunton video review that says once you have it, you will be thinking of all kinds of applications (like cutting a table top holdown!) that you can use this machine for in your woodworking day. Not me... for a grand plus a high powered shop vac companion, I will have a gameplan in place and a specific need to fill before purchasing.
Besides... I just spent $500 on an F'in chainsaw! =:0

Well, I sure got a chuckle out of that one. Nothing wrong with good old fashioned tool lust.
Please post a review when you have it !!
Robert

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wrote:
[snipped for brevity]
You make a lot of good points there.

The ones that don't, aren't likely in the running to purchase one of these.

I think the requirement is for the vac to clear out the chips. I don't think it is about the mess it makes. My biscuit joiners make much cleaner cuts if the blades aren't re-grinding chaff... the same thing holds for the Kreg jig. That Domino bit operates in a very confined area, spiral cutter or not.

I also think it is a lot of money. But, to be fair, they're doing some serious acrobatics inside that tool. I have a feeling that they're not dealing with off-the-shelf parts there..and there better be first class metalurgy involved, because my limited brain thinks there are a lot of odd-ball stresses there. Then there is the recoup of research and up-front tooling... not to mention a whole new marketing strategy. I said not to mention it.

I think it would be a wonderful device to design towards. A 'go-to/ grab-for' machine it isn't, imho.

In Leon's mind he is already thrusting his bit with rotating and lateral motion, with plenty of plunge action....
*snickers*
If we don't hear from Leon for a few days...
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SNIP

it is about the mess it makes. My biscuit >joiners make much cleaner cuts if the blades aren't re->grinding chaff... the same thing holds for the Kreg jig. That >Domino bit operates in a very confined area, spiral cutter >or not.
Absolutely my point; you aren't going to throw this in the truck without packing the high suction vac, too. It is part of the package. The point I was trying to make is that I don't usually have a vac unless I need one, and don't want anything else I have to load in the truck. Gettin' lazy in my old age, and haven't enjoyed hauling tools around for a long time, and the idea that I am buying a tool that requires another bulky tool just to work properly isn't at all appealing.
When I am working alone, if I take a break (check in another job, go to lunch, do an estimate, pick up materials, etc.) everything on the job has to be packed up. If I stop somewhere that tools can't safely sit in the back of the truck (that's just about anywhere, and sorry, tool boxes are full) so it has to go in the cab. Shop vac in the cab sux.

serious acrobatics inside that tool. I have a >feeling that they're not dealing with off-the-shelf parts >there..and there better be first class metalurgy involved, >because my limited brain thinks there are a

It will be intersting to see how well these do in the market. Like I said, I could see it as specific use, shop used, production tool pretty easily. I would like to hear about their track record over the next several months or year.
But I am wondering if they have ovetstepped the financial boundaries of the home craftsman and not met the needs of a full timer.

I'm kinda wondering if that isn't at least part of the attraction!
Just kiddin', Leon.
Robert
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