Festool and IWF

[Jack]

All my face frames I make with pocket hole screws, no interest in doing it any other way.

Door frames I generally would prefer using the shaper with frame and panel bits, otherwise standard mortise and tenon or stub tenon works fine. Still not interested in the Domino.

If you are adding

I could see that for large panels, but not enough for me to go for a domino.

Do you think

Strength is a non-issue, I would never ever buy a domino because pocket holes or stub tenons were not strong enough. At least 10 billion frames and panels made w/o and no problems with strength.

You mean tenons there, but yes, I do. Not saying a domino has zero value, but yes, not worth much to me. I can see the value in wide edging on large plywood table top.

Well I didn't take it literally, much like when people say they would not like being forced to buy saw stop tech, I never thought they were worried about Federal agents dropping in in black helicopters forcing every man women and child to go out and buy a Saw Stop.

FWIW I don't know of any one that uses dry wall

Well, I don't know who they sell them too, and it seems neither do you, nor does my professional dry wall guy. My guess is he has seen them in use, but doesn't see the need, thus his comment.

I can assure you the same thing, also, whether he uses a festering "dust extractor" or a Fein "shop vacuum" makes little difference to the homeowner.

Still, if you are gutting a bathroom or a kitchen, you are going to make dust, and I don't think festool makes a dust free sledge or sawzall.

Well I think all the shop vacs are quieter than my 35 year old, but even my old one works fine and cleans nicely.

I changed quickly to pocket holes for face frames, because the value is obvious. I also see the value in a silent vacuum cleaner, but not enough to spend 3x's as much than for one damn near just as quiet. I see little/no value (to me) in a domino and I listened intently to all the arguments. Jury is still out on what sander, if any, I should replace my current one with. I don't make stuff like I did when I was younger, and gung ho, so even if the $400 overpriced festool sander is worth it, not sure it is to me, but, it is the one festool you have come close to talking me into, but I hate sanding and fun is an interesting concept I'm having trouble resisting (or believing, but believe it or not, I do value your opinions:-)

Huh? I wrote my first computer program in 1965, but no clue why you ask?

[Jack]

I wish! I still have OS/2 and my entire OPUS BBS system on a 486 on the floor beside me. Hasn't been hooked up in 12 years but I bet it would boot right up if I plugged her in. WIN has not caught up to OS/2 even with XP and WIN 7. I will admit that XP almost worked, and WIN 7 is getting there, but really, I don't think anyone at MS has a freaking clue what they are doing, and must use way to many recreational drugs.

No, but my memory is starting to fade a bit. I remember Rod Speed, I fought over win/OS/2/UNIX in Dr. Debug with him for years. He was like Upscale with a brain. I enjoyed debating/arguing then, just as I do now. Interestingly, a year or two ago I looked in a windows newsgroup from down under and low and behold, there was Rod arguing and belittling the small folk over windows. It was him, I asked him. He was the only guy I knew with half a [computer] brain that liked windows... strange dude there, but great fun. He was quite obnoxious too, worse than me even. I always suspected MS was pissing in his pocket.

Most everyone else is lost in the abyss.

[Jack]

This is the feature that grabs my interest. I think my sander is starting to act up a little, and sometimes goes into low speed mode. Sometimes it jumps around a bit, which I thought was a power issue, but you think it is too much suction. I don't think I get too much suction, the small hose seems to limit that enough, but I wouldn't bet the farm on that.

I like that part. Fast is what I want when it comes to sanding. Actually, I'd rather get someone else to sand, or not sand at all. I hate building big stuff mostly cause I hate sanding (and staining) big stuff. Spraying finish I don't mind. Well, I do like sanding and finishing on my lathe, that's fast and rather enjoyable.

Coupled with a Festool vac and perhaps a Fein vac you will only hear the sander

Yeah, and I'm going to stop reading you... You are like a car salesman, safer to avoid contact...

[Leon]

Not sure if too much suction would necessarily be your problem with a different type sander, remember the Festool also blows air through the center hole, that air has to go some where and too much suction would cause it top hop, so to speak.

Yeah well, when sanding 4~6 hours at a time, the lack of noise and not having to wear hearing protection is a welcome feature for me.

[Puckdropper]

Jack wrote in news:k1o1bu$kad$ [e-mail]:

*snip*

*snip*

There are quieter vacuums available for reasonable amounts, but they're not as quiet as the more expensive ones. However, chances are good the reduction in noise isn't what drives the price up, it's HEPA certification.

I believe both the Fein and Festool vacs are HEPA certified.

Puckdropper

[Ed Pawlowski]

I hear complaints like that often. For some reason though, the complainers continue to use the product rather than make their own system that would be better, faster, cheaper. Once you do, let me know and I'll buy it. Meantime, I'm using MS products until yours hits the market.

[Swingman]

Even Windows 8!?

[Leon]

While not terrible the inbetweener Windows programs that never really caught on will probably adopt Windows 8 too. l~)

I understand that you can run "8" with a more familiar interface rather than with the Windows Smart Phone screen. I never had the desire to touch a monitor, keyboard, and mouse....

[Jack]

Yeah, monopolies are like that, particularly in OS's.

rather than make their own

That's one of the stupider things I've heard in a while. Besides, OS/2 was a much, much, much better OS than DOS/WIN, but MS and IBM made certain you would be using win garbage. What other system might have arisen with equal playing fields can only be imagined. Monopolies are like that.

You'll be the first to know. Meantime, I *know* you'll be using MS products, monopolies are like that.

[krw]

Agreed. I switched from OS/2 to WinNT 3.51 at work and Win2K at home (with the intention of going to Linux in a year or two - that never worked out).

IBM? They just admitted defeat, after pretty much everyone else already had.

It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into applications. Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them ubiquitous. Later, breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In the '90s, PCs were about where phones were in the '50s.

Only because there aren't any better mousetraps. There *are* others but not "better".

[Ed Pawlowski]

But the broken units are pretty much back together again. How many baby bells existed after the breakup? Now you have ATT and Verizon and ?????

All the kings horses and all the kings men did a good job on Humpty the Phone Company.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Ah, the conspiracy theory.

Other systems are readily available, but people just don't seem to be flocking to them or demanding them. We have choices.

August 2011, Gartner estimated Apple's PC market share in US as 10.7% for ... global desktop market share of Windows 92.2%, Apple 6.36%, Linux 1.41%.

We all don't drive the same car either, but people freely make choices.

[lucasP]

'basilisk[_2_ Wrote:

Hello everyone, i am the one reffered to as the "Festool Guy " at the

2012 IWF show, just to clear a few things up, i was not working for festool or 'Tools for Working Wood: Welcome' who actually paid for the booth, im a cabinet builder who was subcontracted out by toolsforworkingwood in effort to show how much they as a retailer care about you as a client that they are willing to shell out upwards of 10k to demo tools for you and answer most questions to the best of their ability, they have invested tons of time and effort into creating the conveniance of a mobile site but without loosing the personal touch of a family ran establishment, how many other retailers can you say the same for? With that being said all the tools you saw at my booth were tools that belong to me, minus a few sanders and the router table, i paid full retail price for these tools hence my statement...now as far as your comment about having a show special, festool just like any other company doesnt want to start giving discounts because they dont want to devalue their tool, they want you to base your decision of where to buy not by how much of a discount you can get but by how good the dealer is, their knowledge of the tools and their customer service... Try calling amazon and asking them if you can use a 1/4" collet in your 2200 router, their honest opinion about the surefix.... I have been to dealerships who have one employee that was sent to festool training who is a total burnout and cant even answer which sandpaper to use on bare wood. Now in my opinion when your spending 600 bucks on a dust extractor i would love to have someone tell me why its worth that 600, tell me its features and benefits and how it is intergradable with other festool products and even other brand tools... Rather than hearing here it is, on /off, 600$ so you want it? sales aspect aside, what about the aftermath? Yes all festools are built solid with the best of parts and most likely you will not need repairs or service but if something does go wrong festool is there and they always have been in my experiance, you call, they have answers, they will send you parts, the guy you speak on the phone with will most likely be the same guy that will be working on your machine. then we have the tool price it self, development, testing, marketing etc... Makita and dewalt ripped off festool tracksaw, would i buy either those brands? Absolutely not, for a few reasons, one they are still POS tools made in china with inferior parts. Once the prices go down so does everything else along with it, as a cabinet builder the only time i can drop my price is if i use cheaper materials because my labor will not change, so i most likely will thank you and walk away from the project because i refuse to put my hard work into an inferior end product, if you want to compete for jobs with the laborers that stand in front of big box stores you might as well stick to buying tools from those same stores as well. Regards Lucas

[krw]

A few others. We have a *lot* of people building phones, though.

[Ed Pawlowski]

All the land line phones in my house have the ATT brand on them. I've tried others, but they are crap by comparison.

Remember when we had one Bell phone in black in the house and it was on a party line? I think we have eight phones now, both wired and portable.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Thank you for the clarification.

You make a good point, but there is one thing that still bugs me. Not just Festool, but many others like them.

I agree that it takes a lot of overhead to properly stock, display, demonstrate, etc. and you deserve to make a fair profit. You must make profit to stay in business and serve customers in the future.

No one, IMO, has the right to tell you how much to sell your goods for. If the MSREP is $600, if you provide exceptional service maybe you can get $630. But if you want to sell it for $550, that is your business too.

Try calling amazon

And they expect me to pay that twit full retail price?

If I've done my research, perhaps that is all that is needed. To be fair, I won't take an hour of your time at the full price dealer and then go to the discounter to buy and save a few bucks. That is unethical, yet done every day. I don't know how to stop it.

Agree

[Swingman]

Festool does ...

[Leon]

FWIW I have never heard a Festool retailer complain about the fixed pricing structure. The never loose a sale to someone selling for less. It saves and protects them from spending time with you and loosing the sale to someone selling cheaper. That eventually degrades the brand. Few to none of the once great brands we all know has the quality reputation that Festool enjoys. No retailer wants to sell for less, that cuts into profits and means he will not offer you as much in service. The fixed pricing is good for the retailer and for you. The retailer makes his profit and you rest assured that the price you pay at your favorite dealer is the best price available.

And then when you actually buy the tool and use it the cost of the tool some how seems to be justified and you generally don't give it a second thought. This might be the reason that those that complain about the cost of Festool and don't actually use the product complain. They think that they are going to get the same product as the brand X tool which they paid significantly less for.

[basilisk]

Lucas.

I am the OP of this thread, I was not angered nor offended by your statement to me at IWF, nor were you rude, it was just odd that you were so blunt. OK, you're a cabinet maker and not a slick tool salesman. I have been known to be blunt myself.

No offense taken and I hope none given.

The main point was that Festool gives "no one" discounts.

I do understand the value of Festool products an there pricing structure, hence my asking about discounts, if I had happened up on the one time in history that an individual Festool product was discounted, I would have bought then in place of waiting.

I buy what I can justify, either from sheer desire or from actual need to produce, I can justify a domino on both counts.

By the way the domino xl is a helluva machine.

I noticed that you were posting from diybanter, why not get a real newsreader and join us.

basilisk

[krw]

Nevertheless...

I remember that. Barely. I think.

...and we have zero. ;-) The "phone line" only talks to the computers and the satellite TV box (DSL).