Have you listened to a Festool dust collector? In no way shape or form can you compare it's quietness to any regular shrieking shop vac. Depending on the speed that one is set, it's a virtual hum. Although, I don't own a Festool sander, I've listened to and used one before. All it does is add another dimension to that virtual hum.
Mike, you need to get your butt over to a Festool dealer's demo day and find out for yourself. Until then all you denials and refusal to agree count for nada. And similarly, until then you just don't have any basis to disagree with what's been said to you about Festool.
I am not trying to pull anything here, I am only trying to show you that while you may think that Festool is over priced there are many more people that believe that the brand of tools you use are overpriced. It is all relative.
For you Festool may not make sense, I get that, I have been there. But for me, and doing this" for hire" since 1997, my quality of work has at least maintained and probably gotten better with the Domino and track saw in particular. And for sure I am saving days if not weeks on large jobs. That last fact alone has by far justified the extra cost of the Festool tools that I have purchased. Keep in mind that I have used "thousands" of Domino floating tenons, and in most cases you have to cut double very close tolerance mortises for each of those Domino tenons. Would a biscuit joiner work, yes in about 25% of my needs.
No, just making a comparison to what you might consider a level of quality and what I consider a level of quality and what someone else may consider a level of quality. And I am still nowhere near as good as Tom Playman used to be. Just because yo know a group of guys that do what they do with a certain priced tool does not mean that they are the best at what they do.
And they don't pay as much as what you do either.
Being a pro for 20~50 years does not prove anything. I am sure thse guys are great at what they do. That does not mean that they doe the absolute best job. I am not pissed at all, If I were not better than the average pro wold not be picking and choosing the work I do. I lot of other pros work results make me look good.
Perhaps every one of the guys your mentioned made more money that any of my mechanics and even in 1983 dollars. The fact remained that the more expensive time saver tools that my guy used enabled him to make that large salary. I did not know any better back then and questioned him about the money he spent on his tools. He reminded me how he would save contaminated diesel fuel and put it in the 55 gal drum in the bed of his diesel Pickup. He seldom paid for fuel. He did not spend money unless he could justify the cost.
Yeah they are all close enough in price, to be considered. But like you said Festool has more accessories and I know that they integrate with each other pretty well.
I did not say I would hire a contractor based upon his tools. But the if it was my profession Festools dust collection is a advantage in saving time in cleaning up and therefore saves time. Time is money after all.
So you see Jack, even those "very, very professionals" don't know all there is to know about the tools available in the the line of work they are in. That surprises you, that does not surprise me. Not to say that some of your guys are not the absolute best in their field but no one knows it all or is above doing better. Most pro's tend to become accustomed to one way of doing things after 20~30 years and simply have no tolerance for change. Having been in the service industry all of my life this is a know fact. Generally speaking there are exceptions, and those guys tend to be the ones that improve and not satisfied with the status quo.
Let me ask you this. Would you like to build all of your cabinet face frames/frame and panel doors with mortise and tennon joints, do you think that would be better than pocket hole screws or biscuits if it was accomplished in the same amount of time or less? If you are adding
1.5"~2" wide borders, rails and stiles, to 3/4" plywood panels would you rather use mortise and tenons over pocket holes screws and biscuits if the could be done in the same or less amount of time? Do you think mortise and tenon joints would be stronger than pocket hole and or biscuit joints? This is what the Domino does to name a few. Or do you think that biscuits and pocket hole screws are good enough?
Given his answer of "no one uses dry wall sanders" do you believe that to be the actual truth? FWIW I don't know of any one that uses dry wall sanders either. I am not about to think that Festool is only selling dry wall sanders to hobbyist and millionaires.
I can assure you a competent contractor is not going to leave a heaping mess in a clients home every night, especially when the job runs into the tens of thousands of dollars over several weeks. So when the time comes to start the reconstruction if there is a chance of not having to do a major dust clean up the smarter contractor is going to take advantage of that.
And probably the reason there is a market for guys like us rather than you. I think you fall in the category of one that has become accustomed to one way of doing things after 20~30 years and simply have no tolerance for change.
LOL, Better yet take home a sander and vac. You have 30 days to see if it suits you.
A word of warning, learn to use the VS on the vac when sanding. Too strong and the sander wants to hop. Dial it up just high enough so that the sander glides along the surface and picks up the dust.
Also because the sander/vac combination work so well together do not leave the paper on too long. The paper will wear out long before it has any visual signs of wear. Still the paper lasts much longer than that on a non collection sander. I learned to feel the paper surface and compare it to a new piece.
In most cases you will not hear the vac when it is running and attached to an operating power tool, power drills included.
Have a look in the mirror Mike. We keep saying the same things to you and you keep replying with the same answers. There is no reading comprehension problem, it's time for you to stop trying to make some sense of what we're saying and go do. Or do not. There is no try.
There, I paraphrased Yoda a bit. Do or do not. Your choice. You're emulating Bill with all your questions. (Sorry Bill). They've been answered, maybe not to your ultimate satisfaction, but answered nevertheless.
I can remember years ago in a discussion on how we both loved our PC block sanders I think the 333 or something like that. No dust collection so always a mess. When I first got my Rotek sander I had to keep feeling the surface to be sure it was working. There wasn't any sawdust. Should have listened to you on the Rikon bandsaw. Unfortunately broke my foot on the day I got it so I still have it.
Those 333 PC sanders were great, they would make a pile of dust, quick! but man was there a lot of dust. ;~) I darn near broke my food the day I got my Rikon, the cast iron table fell on my foot.
I'm still pondering his claims that a festool sander makes sanding almost fun. I can afford one, but I'm still pondering.
I question that. My sander has 8 holes to collect dust, it does not have the middle 9th hole a festering sander has. My sander makes about no dust when hooked up to my 35 year old $80 shop vac, or to my dust collection system... no dust. I would bet money if I buy a festering sander, and can find the appropriate non-standard hose fittings (thats an assumption because my experience with super [over] high priced stuff is they make everything non-standard so they can pry even more money out of your pocket) it would be just as dust free as it would if I used a $500+ festering vac.
That lack of a greater amount of dust *always* has a
Yawn.
Yes, rich banker that wants the best money can buy. That might include some tradesman, but not many. That is there market, they want their prices high, they will not budge, they don't allow sales. A sale would ruin their image to the rich Texan oil guys, or the hobbyist school teacher that makes too much money and thinks he can build a quality cabinet if he just owned the best tools money can buy.
The sander still has my attention, fun is good at most any price! I'm just a bit leery of Leon's "over the top enthusiasm", but he is right about most everything in my experience.
The Festering hose is a European standard, IIRC, but they do sell an adapter to a standard US (1-1/2", I think) shop vac. That's what I use and there aren't any problems with it.
They *do* have sales. I bought both of my Festers (router and track saw) during sales.
Including the value of Festools. Give in to the force. You've lost. ;-)
Seriously Jack, Take a "5 or 6" Rotex" sander home. Hook it up to your system. Tell the guys at the store that you are perfectly happy with your sander but have heard that the Rotex is great. You have 30 days to decide if it is worth your hard earned money or not. No risk.
One of the features of the Festool sanders dust collection is that the center hole actually blows a stream of air and the outer holes vacuum the dust. Basically, when the suction is adjusted just right the sander tends to float and is quite effective in picking up the dust. Too much suction and the sander tends to be jumpy.
But besides the dust collection the Rotex will darn near keep up with a belt sander in its aggressive mode with similar grit sand paper. The thing runs circles around any other ROS in that mode. Coupled with a Festool vac and perhaps a Fein vac you will only hear the sander running, while that may not seem important, it is a very nice feature that is a pleasant added feature. Basically no noise fatigue, part of what makes sanding more fun. ;~)
I still have one that functions pretty well. I broke mine unloading tool and parts boxes without help so I could go pick the Rikon up. Tried to slide it down a 2x8 out of the pickup and the board slid too. Gravity was faster then me. That was a painful afternoon. Fortunetly it had a lifting eye and I had a boom truck at home. Got it in the shop and called it a day. That's a heavy table to drop on your foot you were lucky.
Do that to your hearts content, but I never questioned the "quality" of Festools. I have, and do question their prices and I believe in the laws of diminishing returns.
And I am still nowhere near as good as Tom
I don't know anyone that is "best at what they do". I never said the professionals that I asked about festools were the best on earth, but they have been in the business professionally for many, many years and only one ever heard of festool. This surprised even me, considering it is not just them, but to never heard of festool, that means the people working for them and around them don't use them either. That doesn't mean festools are junk, but it means you and swing belittling people because they don't recognize festool as the only way to go is more than a little pompous.
It proves they are professionals and they don't use festering tools.
I am sure thse guys are great at what they do.
I am too.
That does not mean that they doe the absolute best job.
Well, they may make more noise than you do, hard to say, but they are not "bit players" and from what I see and hear, you would be lucky if you could afford them, and manage to hire them. They are not fly by night.
I am not pissed at all, If I were not better than
I don't question your work just because you use high quality, overpriced tools.
I worked in a large auto body/ motor repair shop when I was in collage. I'd love to know what tools this guy was using that made him so much better and faster than anyone else? I know awesome body guys, and great mechanics, but all used mostly the same tools. My experience was it was the guy, not the tools. I don't know any professional anything that uses junk tools, and one day perhaps they will all be using festools, but I wouldn't hold my breath as long as competition exists.
I did not know any better back then and questioned him
What tools are these?
He reminded me how he would save
In that case my guess is he would be more likely to have a high priced $300 Fein shop vac than an overpriced $600 Festering "dust extractor"
Frugality recognizes the laws of diminishing returns.
Mike does not need to own a festering tool to know that $600 for a shop vac is a lot of money for a shop vac, excuse me, a "dust extractor" Moreover, considering Mike paints cars for a hobby at least, he knows all about sanding, sanding tools, and sanding noise. He knows enough about it to recognize bull (hype).
Also, anyone that has used tools for most of their life can quickly decide if they need a $600 festering drill or a $200 non-festering drill. There is a reason Festool green is not used by everyone in the business (no one in the business that I asked) Also, most people with years of experience can laugh at dumb asses that think they can create masterpieces if they just go out and spend their wives life savings on the most expensive tools money can buy. It don't work that way.
Lastly, my sander has 8 holes and is so dust free I need no mask, see no dust, when I hook up my 35 year old shop vac, I mean "dust extractor" to it, or even my even older whole shop central dust collector (extractor). I am certain I could care less about a festering tools one extra hole, or claims of dust free usage. I am very interested in it's durability, power, and a few other features that had me teetering more than once on purchase. You can bet I can recognize the hype that I need to invest $1200 in a shop vac and sander just to make less dust when dust is already a non-issue with my 8 hole sander.
Oh, and I don't need or want a domino to make drawers, or to glue up wide boards, or about 90% of the things they are used for.
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