Festool and IWF

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On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"

Depends on what you do. The bulk of my original contracting in clients homes was altering and replacing the existing cabinetmaking. And much of that cabinetmaking was building in place.
Typical construction was slicing up sheets of plywood in a driveway and taking them inside to be assembled. A Domino back then would have been invaluable. I'd have to assume it would be just as valuable now.
If I was building in my shop, then there wasn't as much of an impact, but there was still some anyway you look at it. Despite Leon's over the top enthusiasm with Festool, he actually does a tremendous amount of work in his shop. Why should anybody doubt his claims of greatly increased efficiency?
As far as the rest of the tools you mentioned go, the only one I can comment to is the sanding. Festool sanders with the appropriate Festool dust collector are noticeably more efficient with the dust collection. That lack of a greater amount of dust *always* has a significant impact in a client's home.
Now, if it's a total gut job, not much of a difference, but that wasn't my shtick back then.
But, I understand all of what you're saying/asking. The march of Festool sales is inexorable. But, its pricing will always limit it to a certain strata.
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On 8/27/2012 11:02 PM, Dave wrote:

I'm still pondering his claims that a festool sander makes sanding almost fun. I can afford one, but I'm still pondering.

I question that. My sander has 8 holes to collect dust, it does not have the middle 9th hole a festering sander has. My sander makes about no dust when hooked up to my 35 year old $80 shop vac, or to my dust collection system... no dust. I would bet money if I buy a festering sander, and can find the appropriate non-standard hose fittings (thats an assumption because my experience with super [over] high priced stuff is they make everything non-standard so they can pry even more money out of your pocket) it would be just as dust free as it would if I used a $500+ festering vac.
That lack of a greater amount of dust *always* has a

Yawn.
Yes, rich banker that wants the best money can buy. That might include some tradesman, but not many. That is there market, they want their prices high, they will not budge, they don't allow sales. A sale would ruin their image to the rich Texan oil guys, or the hobbyist school teacher that makes too much money and thinks he can build a quality cabinet if he just owned the best tools money can buy.
The sander still has my attention, fun is good at most any price! I'm just a bit leery of Leon's "over the top enthusiasm", but he is right about most everything in my experience.
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The Festering hose is a European standard, IIRC, but they do sell an adapter to a standard US (1-1/2", I think) shop vac. That's what I use and there aren't any problems with it.

They *do* have sales. I bought both of my Festers (router and track saw) during sales.

Including the value of Festools. Give in to the force. You've lost. ;-)
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On 8/29/2012 8:10 AM, Jack wrote:

Seriously Jack, Take a "5 or 6" Rotex" sander home. Hook it up to your system. Tell the guys at the store that you are perfectly happy with your sander but have heard that the Rotex is great. You have 30 days to decide if it is worth your hard earned money or not. No risk.
One of the features of the Festool sanders dust collection is that the center hole actually blows a stream of air and the outer holes vacuum the dust. Basically, when the suction is adjusted just right the sander tends to float and is quite effective in picking up the dust. Too much suction and the sander tends to be jumpy.
But besides the dust collection the Rotex will darn near keep up with a belt sander in its aggressive mode with similar grit sand paper. The thing runs circles around any other ROS in that mode. Coupled with a Festool vac and perhaps a Fein vac you will only hear the sander running, while that may not seem important, it is a very nice feature that is a pleasant added feature. Basically no noise fatigue, part of what makes sanding more fun. ;~)
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Yes it is, and he'll let you come over and use his sander and vacuum if you'll sand Aunt Polly's fence and give him a quarter! :-)
Puckdropper
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On 8/29/2012 10:28 AM, Leon wrote:

This is the feature that grabs my interest. I think my sander is starting to act up a little, and sometimes goes into low speed mode. Sometimes it jumps around a bit, which I thought was a power issue, but you think it is too much suction. I don't think I get too much suction, the small hose seems to limit that enough, but I wouldn't bet the farm on that.

I like that part. Fast is what I want when it comes to sanding. Actually, I'd rather get someone else to sand, or not sand at all. I hate building big stuff mostly cause I hate sanding (and staining) big stuff. Spraying finish I don't mind. Well, I do like sanding and finishing on my lathe, that's fast and rather enjoyable.
Coupled with a Festool vac and perhaps a Fein vac you will only hear the sander

Yeah, and I'm going to stop reading you... You are like a car salesman, safer to avoid contact...
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On 8/30/2012 12:13 PM, Jack wrote:

Not sure if too much suction would necessarily be your problem with a different type sander, remember the Festool also blows air through the center hole, that air has to go some where and too much suction would cause it top hop, so to speak.

having to wear hearing protection is a welcome feature for me.
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On 8/27/2012 9:57 PM, Dave wrote:

This is true. Two contractors did things like small building, garages, homes, home additions, kitchen, bath remodeling, that sort of stuff. One of those was the only guy that had ever heard of festool but didn't own them. Two were carpenters, one was a dry wall contractor, one a professional body man. All are very, very professional and all are around tools and people that use them professionally. I was a bit surprised they didn't even know what festools were. That means not only didn't they use them, but no one else around them used them. You can bet every one of them know what Milwaukee is, what snap on is, and so on. I'd bet you would be hard pressed to name a brand, other than festool they didn't know all about. That even surprised me.
But, just speaking about the Domino here, it would be

I don't know what a domino does that I'd need it for, and I'm a cabinet maker? It's not a tool I dream about, much like I have no need for a nail gun. If you want to give me a festool, I think I'd like the a sander, but only because Leon said it makes sanding fun. That I'd like.

Since you mentioned it, I asked the drywall contractor about the Festool drywall sander. He said no one uses drywall sanders and laughed at me. Regarding dust, he said when he makes dust, someone else cleans it up. When he has to clean up, he makes no dust.

Festool hasn't changed that. Home contracting usually starts with a sledge hammer and sawzall. Does Festool make a dust free sledge or sawzall?

Yeah, right. I forgot, your Kreg jig makes no dust with a $500 festering vac sucking up all those nasty drill filings. Youse guys kill me.
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On 8/28/2012 9:09 AM, Jack wrote:

So you see Jack, even those "very, very professionals" don't know all there is to know about the tools available in the the line of work they are in. That surprises you, that does not surprise me. Not to say that some of your guys are not the absolute best in their field but no one knows it all or is above doing better. Most pro's tend to become accustomed to one way of doing things after 20~30 years and simply have no tolerance for change. Having been in the service industry all of my life this is a know fact. Generally speaking there are exceptions, and those guys tend to be the ones that improve and not satisfied with the status quo.

Let me ask you this. Would you like to build all of your cabinet face frames/frame and panel doors with mortise and tennon joints, do you think that would be better than pocket hole screws or biscuits if it was accomplished in the same amount of time or less? If you are adding 1.5"~2" wide borders, rails and stiles, to 3/4" plywood panels would you rather use mortise and tenons over pocket holes screws and biscuits if the could be done in the same or less amount of time? Do you think mortise and tenon joints would be stronger than pocket hole and or biscuit joints? This is what the Domino does to name a few. Or do you think that biscuits and pocket hole screws are good enough?

Given his answer of "no one uses dry wall sanders" do you believe that to be the actual truth? FWIW I don't know of any one that uses dry wall sanders either. I am not about to think that Festool is only selling dry wall sanders to hobbyist and millionaires.

I can assure you a competent contractor is not going to leave a heaping mess in a clients home every night, especially when the job runs into the tens of thousands of dollars over several weeks. So when the time comes to start the reconstruction if there is a chance of not having to do a major dust clean up the smarter contractor is going to take advantage of that.

And probably the reason there is a market for guys like us rather than you. I think you fall in the category of one that has become accustomed to one way of doing things after 20~30 years and simply have no tolerance for change.
When did you change over to a computer?? ;~)
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On 8/28/2012 2:38 PM, Leon wrote:

IIRC, Jack may still use OS/2. ;)
http://jbstein.com /
(IIRC, I have a dim recollection of Jack on the Fido OS/2 echo back in the old days of computing ... I'd bet Mark Lewis and Lynn Nash ring a bell, eh Jack?)
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On 8/28/2012 3:54 PM, Swingman wrote:

I wish! I still have OS/2 and my entire OPUS BBS system on a 486 on the floor beside me. Hasn't been hooked up in 12 years but I bet it would boot right up if I plugged her in. WIN has not caught up to OS/2 even with XP and WIN 7. I will admit that XP almost worked, and WIN 7 is getting there, but really, I don't think anyone at MS has a freaking clue what they are doing, and must use way to many recreational drugs.

No, but my memory is starting to fade a bit. I remember Rod Speed, I fought over win/OS/2/UNIX in Dr. Debug with him for years. He was like Upscale with a brain. I enjoyed debating/arguing then, just as I do now. Interestingly, a year or two ago I looked in a windows newsgroup from down under and low and behold, there was Rod arguing and belittling the small folk over windows. It was him, I asked him. He was the only guy I knew with half a [computer] brain that liked windows... strange dude there, but great fun. He was quite obnoxious too, worse than me even. I always suspected MS was pissing in his pocket.
Most everyone else is lost in the abyss.
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I hear complaints like that often. For some reason though, the complainers continue to use the product rather than make their own system that would be better, faster, cheaper. Once you do, let me know and I'll buy it. Meantime, I'm using MS products until yours hits the market.
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On 8/30/2012 9:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Even Windows 8!?
<g, d&r>
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On 8/31/2012 8:40 AM, Swingman wrote:

While not terrible the inbetweener Windows programs that never really caught on will probably adopt Windows 8 too. l~)
I understand that you can run "8" with a more familiar interface rather than with the Windows Smart Phone screen. I never had the desire to touch a monitor, keyboard, and mouse....
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On 8/30/2012 10:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yeah, monopolies are like that, particularly in OS's.
rather than make their own

That's one of the stupider things I've heard in a while. Besides, OS/2 was a much, much, much better OS than DOS/WIN, but MS and IBM made certain you would be using win garbage. What other system might have arisen with equal playing fields can only be imagined. Monopolies are like that.

You'll be the first to know. Meantime, I *know* you'll be using MS products, monopolies are like that.
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Agreed. I switched from OS/2 to WinNT 3.51 at work and Win2K at home (with the intention of going to Linux in a year or two - that never worked out).

IBM? They just admitted defeat, after pretty much everyone else already had.

It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into applications. Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them ubiquitous. Later, breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In the '90s, PCs were about where phones were in the '50s.

Only because there aren't any better mousetraps. There *are* others but not "better".
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On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:34:01 -0400, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

But the broken units are pretty much back together again. How many baby bells existed after the breakup? Now you have ATT and Verizon and ?????
All the kings horses and all the kings men did a good job on Humpty the Phone Company.
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A few others. We have a *lot* of people building phones, though.

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On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 13:39:49 -0400, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

All the land line phones in my house have the ATT brand on them. I've tried others, but they are crap by comparison.
Remember when we had one Bell phone in black in the house and it was on a party line? I think we have eight phones now, both wired and portable.
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Nevertheless...
I remember that. Barely. I think.

...and we have zero. ;-) The "phone line" only talks to the computers and the satellite TV box (DSL).
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