Yer' wearin' a gasoline suit to a weeny roast, bubba.
If the fans of the Carpenter of Nazareth leave any meat on yer bones,
those of the Carpenter of Boston most certainly will not.
(watson - who thinks that signing such a thing with the name CHRIS is priceless)
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret) Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet Website:
Chris Melanson:
Tom Veatch:
Condescending? Yes. I also think it's shows a limited knowledge of the world around us. Comparing cabinetmakers to carpenters is like asking, what's more important, your car's engine or the wheels?
In my business (architectural wooddorking/commercial wooddorking) we deal with several disciplines of the woodworking community.
Millworkers: These guys are charged with taking raw stock and forming it into the shapes required up stream to build and assemble a final product. They are the ones who operate the straight line rip saws, the jointers, the planers, the molders and CNC routers. Their product ends up on a cart, in stacks and then gets pushed up to the next area. I've seen these guys put out crown moldings formed to an ellipse that I wouldn't attempt in a cajillion years.
Cabinetmakers: These are the guys who sort through the cart, find all the parts 'n pieces and make the final cuts/shapes that allow them to assemble the parts 'n pieces into a wonderment of wooddorking. I have a picture of some work they've done for a local opera house that would make your (and my) sphincter pucker.
Finishers: These are the stainers and top coaters who take the wood assemblies from being "in the white" to a finished (as of this point) product. If you ever wondered, can a finish free of boogers and runs ever be accomplished, the answer is, yes and it's done daily. These guys also have to be competent in all manner of finishing product which if you haven't noticed requires a back ground in chemistry.
Carpenters: These are the guys on site who take the final product and put it into place where the architect designed it/client needs it. These are the guys who put up the sphincter puckering opera house work and when they were done the seams all blended into the next and the gaps were all closed. Most of the time (OK, all the time) these guys work under horrific conditions compared to those back in the shop. I would go so far to say that most of the guys from the shop (the cabinetmakers) would wet themselves if they had to work under these conditions for an extended period of time.
I could tell you horror stories about each of these groups and I'm sure they could/would dis on me too with equal bravado. The point is, each does a job and there's not a one that I would go up against and compare my worth to or consider that I could replace.
Now before anyone jumps in and qualifies their argument with, "Yah-but, rough carpenters, those are the guys with their brains bashed in", we've had a couple of projects here in town over the last couple of years that prove otherwise. One was a new printing facility for the local newspaper. The most impressive room in the place was a Concrete Clad Cathedral for the newspaper's printing presses. From one end to the next the span was something like 300 feet (a hunnert yards). This room was to house some cutting edge European printing presses with some extremely high tolerances for level and plumb. The rough carpenters laid out the floor and formed for the concrete pour several pits that the presses were to fit in. When the pour was done the variance over the 300 feet was a thirty second of an inch. That's the distance between the two first marks on your tape measure cut into two only they did it over the length of a football (Murican style) field.
Not bad for the bottom feeders on the totem ehh?
UA100, thinking, time to get real here, ehh?...
Inadequacy is no excuse for false pride.
A complete carpenter does it all...from foundation layout and digging footers, to roofing and gutters...and everything in between...including cabinets.
"How well one's house is built is simply a function of the carpenter who built it."
"First man on the job...last man off."
"Carpentry is the King of the Trades."
"Everybody doing something else is just someone who couldn't make it as a carpenter."
"A good carpenter does it by himself."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
is a subset ^^^^^^
of the Carpentry and Building Trades Associate Degree. ^^^^^^^^^
A great carpenter is a warrior of wood (and masonry, and metal) often wearing and carrying dozens of pounds of lethal tools up ladders and roofs doing battle to acheive functional and aesthetic (human) perfection that will protect dwellings and their inhabitants almost forever...then turning around and building elegant site-built bookcases and cabinets, windows and doors, and, if need be...a stick or two of furniture.
To be mistaken for a carpenter speaks well of you and the generosity of others.
Wisdom would have you take it as a compliment.
carpenter and proud of it. Many people think I am a cabinetmaker, I have my own shop and have done cabinet work on a small scale for 20 years.I have worked in several shops as well as installations of millwork,cabinets etc.
A good carpenter can frame, trim, concrete formwork( did a lot of that too)sheetrock and can learn to do first class cabinetmaking.Most shops pay their installers much more than their shop help, that should tell you something. My experience in 43 years of both trades is the two trades are similar enough that each can learn to do the others.By the way , if you had to ask which nail gun to use to install MDF you still have a long way to go to be called a cabinetmaker or carpenter.
Mike
Jesus was a carpenter.....dunno if he made cabinets.
Mutt
Mike If you had taken the time to read the original post you would see I did not ask how to install base boards. You have more than proven my point about attention to detail that most carpenters display in there cabinetmaking skills. Over the years I have hired many journeyman carpenters and I generally find they are capable of building kitchen cabinets or square boxes. but you give them a chair or any thing that involves any type of complicated curve, inlay or veneering and most are incapable of completing the job at all or within any type of time line to be called acceptable. I have also meet people who call themselves cabinetmakers that fall into the same group. I any trade now days you have to almost be a specialist in that particular field. Maybe the skill level of the new generation of "skilled workers" is just not what it used to be. If I was a carpenter I would also be insulted by being called a cabinetmaker especially by a fellow tradesman who in my opinion should be more that informed about the differences between the two trades. There are more than a few people out there who are jack of all trades and master of now . That at whatever particular job they are doing at that time are all of a sudden a qualified Framer, finisher, former, installer, drywaller carpenter cabinetmaker or any of a dozen other trades. To me these are handy men with jobs not tradesmen. In any trade you need to have particular knowledge of that trade that is learned over decades of hands on work to wear that particular title. Not by working the job for a year hear and another for a while and then calling themselves qualified. What they should be saying is that they have some knowledge of whatever job they have been doing not calling themselves tradesmen but jacks of all trades instead. At one time I myself tried to do it all on a job site and was capable of getting the job done. But have learned that you have to hire properly trained and qualified tradesmen to do particular aspects of a job first of all to get the job done right and also on time.
CHRIS
I am glad to see you do know the difference in the trades. the only thing I would disagree with is in a shop environment you generally have A journeyman cabinetmaker that will over see an entire job from start to finish. A machinemen who run the machines and make the parts. A benchmen who assemble the product with all the hardware and prep it for finishing. Not cabinetmakers assembling product. A cabinetmaker should be able to work any where on the shop all the way to the finishing department.When I interview a person for a job I am very particular in asking them if they are a cabinetmaker, machinemen or a benchmen for that reason.
CHRIS
"Unisaw A100" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
cabinetmaker."
And I hope I've taught you something.
UA100
I'm just wondering why no one has mentioned trim screws? You know, with the No. 0 square drive heads.
UA100, who I guess just mentioned trim screws with the No. 0 square drive heads...
Yes, I did think of trim screws. But I think that unless I predrill and countersink, the dimple/volcano would be huge and require a bit of sanding to remove. If I have to do it manually, I think I would just use a hammer.
Yc Tor> I'm just wondering why no one has mentioned trim screws?
Ditto what you said but I'd keep a handful on hand just incase the Nancy nails won't cut it.
By the way, in old wooddorking machinery restoration the dimple/volcano is referred to as a Vesuvius. A Vesuvius or two can sometimes be quite helpful for parts requiring a press fit.
UA100
In a large shop environment. A bench man is the person that dose the final cut and assembly on a bench as the title implies not a cabinetmaker as you understand it. A cabinetmaker is the one who is responsible for the layout, cutlist and quality control and to work along side each group of tradesmen designating the requirements for each to achieve. In a small shop a cabinetmaker will layout.machine, cut and assemble or in other words is capable of performing all of the fore mentioned occupations jobs. So you have not taught me anything as you had hoped.
CHRIS
Chris, Can you explain how you are able to dictate the conventions of a large shop? What I'm meaning to find out is, is it possible that a large shop where you operate from doesn't quite have the same set of conventions as a large shop somewhere else?
UA100, who always thought a large shop was 20 skilled mechanics or more but is willing (always hoping) to be taught something new...
Does your company have a website?
You're picking and choosing your citation.
I've known some carpenters whose skill impressed me every day I worked with them. They built MANY cabinets as that is a traditional task of being a carpenter. Take a look at a complex curved stairway in a fine old home. Could you do it?
Most cabinets nowadays are mediocre at best. Sure there are many above average makers, perhaps a few of them hang out on the wreck, but most stuff ain't worth puttin yourself on a pedestal. I've been in kitchens that cost as much as the house I live in and when it gets down to it, the cabs were just overdone mediocrity with gobs of hardware and trim.
Sounds like you thing that if they are mediocre tradesman but are happy, all is good.
First of all it is machine or machinist not "mechanics"as you stated. For a large shop to have 20 or more machinist you would have to have at least 150 or more bench men to support that many machinist and personally I do not know of any millwork shop that has that many people on the floor. I do know of a few and very few production shops that have that many people on the floor. And what I mean by production shops is either kitchen cabinet manufactures or kd furniture manufactures.Where people are basically robots doing repetitious tasks all day and are generally not skilled trades people Second of all I am not trying to dictate the conventions of a large shop. Here in British Columbia if you call yourself a millworker you work in a lumbermill. But in a millwork shop you have cabinetmakers, machine men and bench men. That work on the floor and produce millwork. Is it possible you are not willing to learn something new??
CHRIS
"Unisaw A100" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...
Not at this time but I have been thinking about having one developed. I generally work with a group of large contractors and interior designers and have not found a need to have a web site to generate business. I do not do any residential work just commercial and food service work. If you know of any good web site designers please forward there URL.
CHRIS
Oh no. As a matter of fact I stated this in my sig line.
By the way, in the lower 48, at least in the shops I have been associated with, there is no greater honor than to be called a "good mechanic". It has nothing to do with where you demonstrate your skill, just that you do and can demonstrate them.
UA100
I would only think you should be insulted if you yourself were a lousy carpenter. If you were a good carpenter there would not be any reason to be ashamed or insulted.
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