Face Frame Alignment

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no snipped-for-privacy@sprynet.com says...

I'll have to look but I guess I didn't make it clear. After the dry fitting and cutting, biscuit slots are cut in the joints of the face frame. IE rails to stile. Glue is applied too both the back of the rails/stiles, carcass, and, of course, the biscuits and joints where the pieces join.
The with the rails in place the second stile is dry fitted to them for the clamping purposes of closing the rail/first stile joint.
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Thanks. That makes sense.

About the clamping, do you clamp the FF parts sideways to each other AND to the carcass (at the same time)? Do you use edge clamps?
While I appreciate the need for/benefits of squaring (and the potential contribution of the FF) as others have mentioned, it _seems_ to me that your system is a bit more forgiving and adjustable -- versus Swingman's system, which seems completely logical but not at all forgiving -- for those of us who may need forgiveness from the woodworking gods. -- Igor
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says...

Wow, so are your face frames not a rigid assembly? Will they hold the cabinet square?
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"Leon" wrote in message

Heh heh .. different strokes. As long as his casework is perfectly square by itself, this works, but I have never been that lucky.
Being one of those that if something can go wrong, it will, my preferred method is to always make the FF first and take great pains in their assembly and squareness, batch cutting all rails and stiles, and checking, and double checking, "square".
Any FF that is not dead-on perfect is scrapped.
The cabinet sides, floor, and top on a wall cabinet, are then assembled _on_ the perfectly square face frame.
From then on out the cabinet is absolutely "square", they butt up to similarly built cabinets with no gaps, and MOST importantly, the 36 doors and umpteen drawers are guaranteed to fit right ... the first time.
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15years ago when I rebuilt my kitchen I used that method. I works but never again.

I do the same. I measure the pieces to fit the cabinet, assemble the pieces with pocket hole screws and then attach to the carcus.

;~)
If my rail at the shelf level is too high I use a flush trim bit in my router to make the rail even with the bottom of the cabinet.
So how's the house coming along?
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"Leon" wrote in message

pieces
Thank god for Kreg .. :)

Roofs on, plumbing rough-in and top out passed, electrical and HVAC started ... now begins the endless minutiae and problem solving. Good news is that a serious offer has been made, so we're actively looking at lots for this year's start.
And speaking of cabinets ... I need to actually get off my duff and practice what I preach in the FF department, real sooooon now! :)
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wrote:

It is my understanding from Swingman's post that he measures the carcass _to_ the FF (I may be wrong about this), while you measure the FF to the carcass. Also, I thought that squaring of the cabinet was done and _set_ when the back piece is attached. Certainly that is what happens (and is all that could happen) w/ frameless cabs. So what is the big deal with FF and square? -- Igor
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I jumped too soon. I build the carcus first, the face frame second, and then attach. After doing these for several years you learn what to watch out for.
Also, I thought that squaring of the cabinet was done and _set_

For the tops I use backs but still rely on the face frame to square and keep square the cavinet. For the bottom cabinets, which I have been building lots of lately I do not use backs for the cabinets. I leave it all open so that the plumbing does not become a nightmare when installing on bathroom and kitchen jobs. Typically the wall is painted white and it helps to make things lighter down there.
Certainly that is what happens (and is

Possibly so however I have never built any frameless Euro style cabinets.
So what is the big deal with FF

I do not know. It is very easy for me to build a square face frame and as long as the cabinet is built square and with equal height sides the frames fit great.
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Do you mean this literally? Could you prvode more details? For exampl,e do you lay the assembled FF on the floor/table and then attach each cabinet piece, one at a time, to the FF? W/ biscuits? -- Igor
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wrote:> >The cabinet sides, floor, and top on a wall cabinet, are then assembled _on_

You betcha.
My first step is usually to build all the face frames, for both upper and lower cabinets, _before_ I ever buy any sheet goods.

Dado/grooves that accept the case parts are have been previously cut in the FF rails and stiles and then the FF assembled (sometimes days or weeks before the next step).
Dado/grooves that accept the floor, top and back panel have been precut into the cabinet sides
Previously made FF is laid on the assembly table, face down. The cabinet sides, floor and top are glued into the grooves pre-cut in the FF and cabinet sides.
Note: All parts (FF and case parts) are batch cut beforehand, as batch cutting is the best way to insure uniformity, accuracy, and therefore, "square". (I try to NEVER move a fence until all the parts with the same measurement have been cut.)
Assembling as above, using the known and carefully "square" built face frame as a template, insures a square cabinet follows.
"Square" means BIG, HUGE benefits/savings in time and money during installation, and the making and fitting of doors, drawers and door fronts.
This works well for me... as previously noted, it certainly is not the only, or even the "right", way to do it ... ymmv applies.
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Your system makes sense, and most importantly, as you said, it works for you. What I find peculiar (not quite the right word here, but it will have to do) is that under your system in which the FF sets the "framework", if a side/top/bottom panel of a cabinet is not quite right on the money in size, you then have to adjust it. For those who build the carcass first and then the FF (by whatever method), if the FF is off in its size it is easier to adjust it than it is to adjust a panel as under your method. I.e., it is easier to take 1/32 off a FF component than it is to take 1/32 off a plywood panel -- at least for some of us.
Of course, if one is very good at measuring, marking, and cutting panels to size, no adjustments are necessary. In some ways, I can see aspiring to your system. I just don't see my ability -- in the near-term, if ever -- to meet its inherent standards. In any event, hats off to you for making it work. -- Igor.
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"igor" wrote in message

have
a
size,
Once again, two words, important concept: "Batch cut"
Granted, this is assuming that you have the tools (table saw in particular) to do batch cutting.

Batch cutting your parts almost always insures this won't happen (nothing is "always" in wooddorking).
IOW, I normally don't care if a part that is "supposed" to be 12" is acutally 11 63/64" instead, as long as ALL the other supposedly 12" parts are 11 63/64" also.
AAMOF, I don't always use a tape measure to make the parts. I often use a story stick I made on site, so I have no idea of the precise dimension in units of whatever.

to
Actually, it _is_ an easier method by far for the unskilled than any other ... how do you think I picked up on it? ;)
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snipped-for-privacy@swbell.net says...

With all the face frame joints biscuited and glued in what way do you think they are not rigid?
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Well, I think I misunderstood. Somewhere I understood that some of the joints would not be glued. Apparently I was incorrectly visualizing what you had written.
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Shit, I *wish* mine would come out flush<G>!
damian penney wrote:

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A flush FF at the bottom makes it one helluva lot easer to sweep out.
Okay.. leave 1/32 if you must.
Rob
Don't sweat the petty things or pet the sweaty things.
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Think about it this way.
1. If you spill something in the cabinet, would it not be easier to wipe or sweep it out over a flush edge than a raised edge? 2. Does it seem that a flush fit would be harder and require greater expertise than having a lip?
Expo does have some decent stuff but it will never compare to well thought out and well built cabinets.
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Leon wrote:

The very reason I commented with the comment I commented with, the added cost of labor to sand the two surfaces flush with each other and not sand through the veneer on the cabinet bottom, i.e., experienced workman.
UA100, who doesn't have a problem with the lip, just that "better made" casework doesn't have a lip...
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Ahh.. I am not saying the absence of a lip represents better made, just less fuss to produce the lip. I sometimes purposely design in a lip to cut down on labor time. A flush fit would be an exact fit where as with a lip any height within reason is acceptable.
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HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your FF up against it. Nothing could be simpler. Certainly easier than trying to get a consistent lip without another reference.
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