Engineer's square

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Ed Bennett wrote:

How is that goofy? We're talking woodworking, here. If the square works well enough for me to draw a guide line through a block of wood I'm intent on boring a hole though, and I'm laying said block on the table, why is it goofy to use the same square to make sure the drill bit is coming down square to the table.
I'm not aware of any situation in which I need a bolt or screw to travel straight down 6 or 8 inches into a piece of furniture with an accuracy of +/- 2 thousandths of an inch.

I have one and I use it. I made my table saw aligner for about 15 bucks and an hour's time.

Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a stick. :-)
BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do to make them worth all that money.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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-MIKE- wrote:

Dial indicators on a stick aren't all bad. I suggest something like
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=SW625-1300
(on sale for $19.95, click on the "Master Catalog Page" link for a photo of the whole thing.
Unscrew the vertical support from the base, lower the cross-arm, and chuck it up in your (unplugged) drill press. Then raise the table until the indicator touches the table.
Turn the chuck by hand and adjust until you get the same reading all the way around.
Use the base as a refrigerator magnet. Send me the point set. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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That's how set the table/quill alignment. 'Cept I lay down a slab of quartz down on the table to give the DI a nice smooth ride.
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Morris Dovey wrote:

On sale for 20 bucks. I have a coupon for free shipping from Enco. Hmmmm, might have to pick up at least a set of metal sticks. :-) That would've saved me some time making my TS jig.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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When you do this, you assume that the drill bit is straight and not ground with a taper. You also assume that the drill chuck and/or the spindle have no runout (i.e. are not bent). You also assume that you can reliably site a tiny gap between the square and an object that has no flat gauging surface. The drill bit has flutes, cutting edges with relief angles, etc. Things can be done to mitigate these sources of error but using a dial indicator will always be a superior method.

Oh, so why bother at all? Why not just trust the angle scale on the machine and be done with it. Heck, why even bother with a square. It's only wood - just eyeball the thing and get on with it!

If you are content with the quality and accuracy obtained by cutting to (or drilling from) pencil lines, then I suppose I stand corrected. For you, and the sort of work that you do, using a square against a drill bit isn't goofy.

People avoid all sorts of projects that challenge their skills. Would you ever attempt to drill a hole from opposite sides with the intent that they meet in the middle? I'm not talking about matching to within a couple of thousandths, just close enough to insert a close fitting tube or rod that needs to move or rotate freely. I have a friend who makes pens and he's nuts about his hole drilling accuracy.

That's great! So, now you know that a dial indicator can be used for more than just simple blade and fence alignment. You have acquired new skills and no longer need to defend inferior alignment techniques that are prone to all sorts of error.
BTW, I'm looking for some good "real life" examples of home made alignment jigs for a new web site I'm getting ready to launch. The jig I choose will be featured prominently as THE standard that all commercial dial indicator jigs will be compared to. The inventor will be given full credit for his/her design and It will be a very positive experience. It could end up being known world-wide as "Mike's dial indicator jig" (or it could be named after another inventor, who knows). Just send me photos and a write-up saying how it is constructed (i.e. plans).

It must come naturally. It appears to be effortless on your part. It's obvious that you have taken a few casual glances at some photos and have decided, without any understanding or further investigation, that you know all about my TS-Aligner products. Don't worry, a lot of people do exactly that and draw the same uninformed conclusions. Now you know why it reminds me so much of illiteracy.
I'm guessing here, but I suppose it would be safe to conclude that you don't have any idea how much it costs to manufacture something like a TS-Aligner or what it takes run a business, promote products, and support a large user base. You probably wouldn't think that your own personal time is completely worthless. You certainly wouldn't accept employment for no pay. But, you seem to think that I should. I'll tell you what I tell everyone who makes such sweeping (and uninformed) generalizations about cost. I'll send you a set of drawings and you go find out how much it costs. Get quotes from domestic machine shops, source materials and parts, toss in the labor, facilities, and utilities costs, and then see how much is left over between my price and your cost. I would bet the world that your cost comes in higher than my selling price. I'm quite sure that the machining alone will put your cost under water.

Actually, I did it your way for many, many years. I sell more now. People who are serious about buying a dial indicator jig don't have a problem signing up for access to premium information sources (the TS- Aligner videos, tablesawalignment.com, etc.). It's all free, but you do have to sign up.
I hope that this answers all of your questions.
Thanks, Ed Bennett
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news:6c79126b-5841-4b98-84af-

FWIW, I didn't get past the registration page.

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Ed Bennett wrote:

None of my bits are tapered. I've checked my drillpress and corrected for runout. You spin the chuck or use straight piece of steel rod. Nothing you said is an issue.
I never said a dial wasn't superior... just not necessary.

Yeah, because that's the same as what I said.

This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group. I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.

Yes, I do all that and my machinists square is accurate enough.

I'm aware of all those things. I honestly hope you succeed and sell a bunch. I know there are people who like to pay a bunch of money for stuff.
There have always been people making shiny tools and claiming they are next best thing, implying you can't do your best without it, trying to make you fell inferior for not joining their club.
And there have and always will be guys who don't fall for the hype. Guys who make their own jigs and fixtures, who don't pay hundreds for every new, shiny, thingamajig that shows up in the latest woodworking magazine. These same guys continue to make, beautiful, even stunning furniture and cabinets and works of art.... all without the shiny thingamajigs.
Guys were doing it all with their hands, before electricity, and they didn't have dial indicators. How on earth do they do it? :-)

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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-MIKE- wrote:

You're pissing in the wind arguing with Ed ... it won't get you anywhere. Just do yourself a favor and DAGS ... you'll quickly find this subject has been beaten to death over at least a decade, as well as find out quickly that some of us aren't the only cranky old farts around here. :)
That said, his TS-Aligner Jr is above just being an excellent tool, it is also something of a rarity in manufacturing in the US in this day and age. While many may not consider it a necessity, just like the Fein Multi-tool, there is little else that will do the job as well when you really need it.
Suffice it to say, if you used one just once, you wouldn't want to go back to anything else.
Let sleeping dogs lie ... a word to the wise.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
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On Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:52:28 -0600, the infamous -MIKE-

"None is." said the English teacher. "none = not one"

How does that go: Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and cut with an axe.
I plonked Ed about 8 years ago after all I saw were were ads for his expensive indicator-on-a-stick thingie. <shrug>
-- Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost. -- Thomas J. Watson
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Larry Jaques wrote:

Really, Larry? You're that guy. Ok, then..... :-)
My usage was correct. Google it. Here's a hint...
If the noun can be counted, you can use either "is" or "are." In my useage, bits can be counted.

There should be a question mark at the end of that sentence. Since you used a colon to extend it, the entire sentence is a question.

"were were?" Ok, I'll give you that one as a typo or a cut-n-paste error.
See what you get for sticking up for me? :-p
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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I've measured femto-seconds on a consistent basis. Martin -MIKE- wrote:

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On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:00:36 -0600, the infamous -MIKE-

Nope. That one isn't up for question. I had it beat into my head in school long ago. But if you Googled it, remember that not quite _everything_ online is true.

Correct. I should have put "How does that go?" Even though I cringe every time, I see so many questions ended with periods online that I'm starting to mimic it. Egad!

Zone error, I guess.

Yeah, ya larnt me agin that 'un.
P.S: Why are you so defensive, Mikey? <chortle>
-- Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost. -- Thomas J. Watson
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Larry Jaques wrote:

I actually got it out of a grammar book I keep on my shelf, but I figured google would be quicker for you.

Just playing, man. Arguing grammar in the internet is about as productive as arguing politics. :-)
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 10:27:38 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:

But both are fun :-). As are comments on netiquette.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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Or arguing the value of a tool... Some find value in purchasing quality tools and others pride themselves in making something similar from scraps.
Larry
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Larry Jaques wrote:

That doesn't mean the one doing the beating was correct.

Googled (actually, I used Dogpile.com instead of Google for my search engine) for the excessivly anal retentive tells us that "none are" is correct usage:
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxnoneis.html http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-non2.htm http://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/none-is-none-are-grammar-according-to-clarkson / http://www.drgrammar.org/faqs/#116 http://volokh.com/posts/1206564497.shtml
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On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:23:38 -0800, Larry Jaques

"For example, some, any, none, no, and all can be used as non-count as well as count..."
Oxford English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, Oxford University Press, 1996. p. 192.
Regards,
Tom Watson http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 /
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Tom Watson wrote:

Speaking of "count" vs. "non-count", why is it that before I start attacking a pile of lumber I have fewer boards and less sawdust, but as I cut them up I have more boards and more sawdust?
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
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On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:39:56 -0600, the infamous Steve Turner

Sidney could have told you that, but he's mistaken on "none are", AFAIC. I don't cotton to "shiney", either. I learned it as "shiny" and that's how it's spelled, period. ;)
-- Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost. -- Thomas J. Watson
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