Very entertaining thread! Thanks guys. With all the stress and anxiety these days, I really appreciate a good laugh every now and then.
Yep, all you need to do is bend up a wire coat-hanger and sweep the drill press table with it's tip. Keeping in mind that it's going to be all springy and bouncy, if you're good at making such subjective "hear the scrape" judgments, then you can get adequate results. Primitive, but feasible. Not much different from the goofy idea of holding a square up against a drill bit.
Honestly, I can't understand why people go to such extremes to avoid dial indicators. It reminds me of the guy who says "I don't need to know how to read; I learn all I need to know by watching TV and listening to the radio." The excuses for some people's aversion to dial indicators often sounds just like the ignorant excuses that illiterate people use to justify their situation. They put themselves thorough all sorts of absurd and convoluted procedures so that they can cope in a world where everyone else can read. A bent up coat hanger? Geez! Cough up the $10-$15 for a dial indicator and learn some useful skills.
You'll find all you need to know about using dial indicators on your table saw at:
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up today!
I completely understand some people's reaction to most dial indicator jigs on the market today. Heck, the vast majority do nothing more than a simple dial indicator on a stick. Some do even less! It amazes me what some people sell, but it amazes me even more that people buy it.
Thanks, Ed Bennett snipped-for-privacy@ts-aligner.com
How is that goofy? We're talking woodworking, here. If the square works well enough for me to draw a guide line through a block of wood I'm intent on boring a hole though, and I'm laying said block on the table, why is it goofy to use the same square to make sure the drill bit is coming down square to the table.
I'm not aware of any situation in which I need a bolt or screw to travel straight down 6 or 8 inches into a piece of furniture with an accuracy of +/- 2 thousandths of an inch.
I have one and I use it. I made my table saw aligner for about 15 bucks and an hour's time.
Honestly Ed, I'm not trying to be a dick, but yours is really not much more than a dial indicator on a stick, certainly not $100 more than a stick. :-)
BTW, I bet you'd sell more if you let people see those videos without having to register. It may help clue people in to whatever it is they do to make them worth all that money.
Buy the best you can afford *now*, this is the one tool that will make or break your every project. One good Starrett is worth 20 cheap Swansons.
Bought one cheap Swanson 6" square for jobsite work, $5.00. Actually dead-on accurate out of the package, but the aluminum parts wore out within 6 months. Tossed the stock, saved the blade and scriber. Shiny blade was made much more readable by lightly sanding it with 320 and a shot of oil.
Buy the best you can afford *now*, this is the one tool that will make or break your every project. One good Starrett is worth 20 cheap Swansons.
Bought one cheap Swanson 6" square for jobsite work, $5.00. Actually dead-on accurate out of the package, but the aluminum parts wore out within 6 months. Tossed the stock, saved the blade and scriber. Shiny blade was made much more readable by lightly sanding it with 320 and a shot of oil.
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You folks have me thinking more and more about these combination squares.
Question 1: Does one alway mark along the steel rule (rather than its head)?
Question 2: Is hardened steel head to be preferred to cast iron?
Question 3: Is the 6" version useful for helping to set up a band saw (not for resawing), or is it too big? Or is it a mute point with such a "slack" blade?
Sorry for such basic questions. With the Thanksgiving 25%-off Rochler coupon, the Starrettt 6" combination square can be had for about $60...
A week ago, the name Starrett was completely unfamiliar to me (though I had seen their products behind locked glass doors).. What looks really impressive is the 12" rule with the protractor, but I can wait for the project that justifies that... ; ) It's not hard to be attracted to fine tools...
The idea is to sweep a circle having a common center point and length. If it grases the surface in a circle - turning by hand - if it digs in - that side is high....
It is simply a single rod that is bent off center to sweep a circle.
Dial indicators on a stick aren't all bad. I suggest something like
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(on sale for $19.95, click on the "Master Catalog Page" link for a photo of the whole thing.
Unscrew the vertical support from the base, lower the cross-arm, and chuck it up in your (unplugged) drill press. Then raise the table until the indicator touches the table.
Turn the chuck by hand and adjust until you get the same reading all the way around.
Use the base as a refrigerator magnet. Send me the point set. :)
On sale for 20 bucks. I have a coupon for free shipping from Enco. Hmmmm, might have to pick up at least a set of metal sticks. :-) That would've saved me some time making my TS jig.
When you do this, you assume that the drill bit is straight and not ground with a taper. You also assume that the drill chuck and/or the spindle have no runout (i.e. are not bent). You also assume that you can reliably site a tiny gap between the square and an object that has no flat gauging surface. The drill bit has flutes, cutting edges with relief angles, etc. Things can be done to mitigate these sources of error but using a dial indicator will always be a superior method.
Oh, so why bother at all? Why not just trust the angle scale on the machine and be done with it. Heck, why even bother with a square. It's only wood - just eyeball the thing and get on with it!
If you are content with the quality and accuracy obtained by cutting to (or drilling from) pencil lines, then I suppose I stand corrected. For you, and the sort of work that you do, using a square against a drill bit isn't goofy.
People avoid all sorts of projects that challenge their skills. Would you ever attempt to drill a hole from opposite sides with the intent that they meet in the middle? I'm not talking about matching to within a couple of thousandths, just close enough to insert a close fitting tube or rod that needs to move or rotate freely. I have a friend who makes pens and he's nuts about his hole drilling accuracy.
That's great! So, now you know that a dial indicator can be used for more than just simple blade and fence alignment. You have acquired new skills and no longer need to defend inferior alignment techniques that are prone to all sorts of error.
BTW, I'm looking for some good "real life" examples of home made alignment jigs for a new web site I'm getting ready to launch. The jig I choose will be featured prominently as THE standard that all commercial dial indicator jigs will be compared to. The inventor will be given full credit for his/her design and It will be a very positive experience. It could end up being known world-wide as "Mike's dial indicator jig" (or it could be named after another inventor, who knows). Just send me photos and a write-up saying how it is constructed (i.e. plans).
It must come naturally. It appears to be effortless on your part. It's obvious that you have taken a few casual glances at some photos and have decided, without any understanding or further investigation, that you know all about my TS-Aligner products. Don't worry, a lot of people do exactly that and draw the same uninformed conclusions. Now you know why it reminds me so much of illiteracy.
I'm guessing here, but I suppose it would be safe to conclude that you don't have any idea how much it costs to manufacture something like a TS-Aligner or what it takes run a business, promote products, and support a large user base. You probably wouldn't think that your own personal time is completely worthless. You certainly wouldn't accept employment for no pay. But, you seem to think that I should. I'll tell you what I tell everyone who makes such sweeping (and uninformed) generalizations about cost. I'll send you a set of drawings and you go find out how much it costs. Get quotes from domestic machine shops, source materials and parts, toss in the labor, facilities, and utilities costs, and then see how much is left over between my price and your cost. I would bet the world that your cost comes in higher than my selling price. I'm quite sure that the machining alone will put your cost under water.
Actually, I did it your way for many, many years. I sell more now. People who are serious about buying a dial indicator jig don't have a problem signing up for access to premium information sources (the TS- Aligner videos, tablesawalignment.com, etc.). It's all free, but you do have to sign up.
None of my bits are tapered. I've checked my drillpress and corrected for runout. You spin the chuck or use straight piece of steel rod. Nothing you said is an issue.
I never said a dial wasn't superior... just not necessary.
Yeah, because that's the same as what I said.
This is a woodworking group. Not a NASA machinists' group. I don't have nano settings on any tool I use.
Yes, I do all that and my machinists square is accurate enough.
I'm aware of all those things. I honestly hope you succeed and sell a bunch. I know there are people who like to pay a bunch of money for stuff.
There have always been people making shiny tools and claiming they are next best thing, implying you can't do your best without it, trying to make you fell inferior for not joining their club.
And there have and always will be guys who don't fall for the hype. Guys who make their own jigs and fixtures, who don't pay hundreds for every new, shiny, thingamajig that shows up in the latest woodworking magazine. These same guys continue to make, beautiful, even stunning furniture and cabinets and works of art.... all without the shiny thingamajigs.
Guys were doing it all with their hands, before electricity, and they didn't have dial indicators. How on earth do they do it? :-)
You're pissing in the wind arguing with Ed ... it won't get you anywhere. Just do yourself a favor and DAGS ... you'll quickly find this subject has been beaten to death over at least a decade, as well as find out quickly that some of us aren't the only cranky old farts around here. :)
That said, his TS-Aligner Jr is above just being an excellent tool, it is also something of a rarity in manufacturing in the US in this day and age. While many may not consider it a necessity, just like the Fein Multi-tool, there is little else that will do the job as well when you really need it.
Suffice it to say, if you used one just once, you wouldn't want to go back to anything else.
This method won't measure runout or even that the quill is parallel (much less collinear) to the axis of rotation, only that the plane of the table is perpendicular to the axis of rotation.
On Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:52:28 -0600, the infamous -MIKE- scrawled the following:
"None is." said the English teacher. "none = not one"
How does that go: Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, and cut with an axe.
I plonked Ed about 8 years ago after all I saw were were ads for his expensive indicator-on-a-stick thingie.
-- Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost. -- Thomas J. Watson
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