Engineer's square

[Bill]

How do the Groz engineer's squares measure up for setting up a TS, BS, etc? Rockler has them (set of 3) on sale for $29.99 instead of $39.99. I think the squares may also come in handy when installing a vise on my workbench to be (so I need a larget one for that?).

A good graduated combination square would be useful too, no? If the engineers squares above were graduated I'd probably use them so much for general tasks that I'd end up messing them up/dropping them...

At this point, I don't even have a good steel rule. Some of you have seen me around here long enough to know I am a beginner. What should I be collecting along these lines?

Thanks, Bill

P.S. Cleaned the (8') gutters today with a Sear ShopVac accessory ($19.99). Definitely a great tool for that chore! Since I recently had new roof installed, besides leaves they were full of grit and nails, etc. It blows leaves, cleans gutters, vacuums the car well. I never before got such satisfaction from a "vacuum cleaner"! : )

[BobS]

Bill,

While the engineers squares at this price point are somewhat accurate, save your money and get a Starrett Try Square (~$75) and build a nice box for it. It is accurate enough (2 thou / 12") for anything you'll align in your shop or want to measure. It will also last you a lifetime and be a great tool to give to your grandson/daughter one of these days. (that's when the wheels on the walker are worn flat...;-)

Bob S.

[Robatoy]

A speed square. A Swanson Speed Square is a great way to get going. Not too expensive either. I'd start with one of those. It is the most used square in my shop.

[Bill]

Thank you, Bob S. I assume you mean "Reliable Try-Square, No. 61" (which is 6" in length). Getting-by with one would be just getting by, no?

Starrett sure has a dizzying arrays of fine products (starret.com), and I thank you for introducing me to them. However, in view of the "big picture" I think I may be wise to buy the Groz squares (or similar) and put the leftover $ towards one of many other tools that I need. Well, who knows, maybe I'll find one on sale! : )

Bill

[Chris Friesen]

An engineers square is usually quite stock-heavy. They're mostly useful for machine setup. A try square is better for laying out joinery.

A good steel rule is accurate right out to each end, with easy to read markings. A 12" is nice, and a 6" comes in handy for smaller items. Some have markings on the end as well (useful for setting bit or blade height). The 6" Shinwa (at Lee Valley and other places) does a good job.

A good combination square is useful. The Starrett or equivalent is expensive but nice. Another option would be to take a 45/45/90 plastic drafting triangle (generally very accurate) down to the big box store and test all the cheaper squares until you find one that happens to be accurate. Also check that the blade is straight.

Chris

[DGDevin]

I found this to be one of the most useful measuring/marking tools I've acquired--I use it constantly.

[Larry Blanchard]

I think that's the same set I bought at Woodcraft. The precision of (IIRC) 0.0006" is marked on the blades, but no indication of whether that's overall or per inch. In either case, I set the 6" up against a pricey machinists square on a flat surface and there was absolutely no light between the blades. I'm happy.

[Mark & Juanita]

I've found engineer squares quite useful for machine setup. I carry a 2" one in my shop apron for quick double-checks on various settings such as jointer fence, etc.

Probably not so much. A good tri-square (combination square) would work better

Probably would recommend one of them first or in combination with the engineers squares

They wouldn't be engineers squares if they were graduated.

Dropping them is definitely not a good thing.

IMO, the set of engineer squares, with a combination square, and a good straight-edge are a good start.

>

[Rick Samuel]

If it only says .0006, it's per inch, not total error.

[J. Clarke]

The precision should be per inch.

While they are on the lower end of accuracy for squares used for setting up metal cutting tools, their precision goes beyond anything that is likely to be detectable in woodworking. Face it, there's nothing magic about machining two pieces of steel flat and sticking them together at right angles--they can do that as well in India or China as they do in the US and Japan and the EU.

The place to spend the bucks is with a combination square--there the cheap ones usually aren't square out of the box and if they are they don't stay square very long--since they have moving parts, maintaining precision is more difficult than for something that is permanently welded/brazed. I finally spent the bucks for a Starrett and I'm glad I did. Browne & Sharpe and Mitutoyo also make good ones.

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:02:48 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy scrawled the following:

That's my mainstay in the field. In the shop, the little pair of

4-inchers from LVT do it for me quite often (but I keep a SSS in the shop, too.)

-- It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare; it is because we do not dare that they are difficult. -- Seneca

[Robatoy]

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -- Seneca

Bill mentioned he was a relatively new at this, so my suggestion was based on cheap. not-too-bad accuracy, easy to handle. A standard combo square is not that much more accurate IMHO unless you drop some serious coin, but they make a fine depth gauge as well. For tablesaw set up etc, a 6" machinist square does it all for me. If more than a couple of thou mess you up, use thicker glue.

[BobS]

Accuracy of that double square is stated as " better than 0.001" per inch"

S.

[Larry Blanchard]

I've got one of the first squares from Stanley Rule and Level Company. They put the handle and the blade in a jig and poured molten metal into a matching set of holes. After all these years, it's still right on!

[Nova]

I'm cheap. For machine set up I use an inexpensive plastic drafting triangles purchased at one of the local office supply places. I find them more than adequate for woodworking.

[-MIKE-]

And you never risk dulling a tooth or blade?

[Bill]

A few years ago, long before I found this forum, I bought two carpenter's squares, 24" and 8", believing that I was starting my woodworking tool collection. I assume they may be good for deciding flatness and maybe cutting some square (replacement) pieces of drywall and as a replacement for a steel rule (?). I anticipated using them as a try square on wood, but from what I've read here they don't make the grade.. Does anyone here use carpenters squares for anything (besides stairways and roofs)? Probably precise enough to use on outdoor furniture, huh--or better than that?

Bill

[Joe]

You'll never regret buying a good square. However, they're only good 'til the first drop, so consider how (and where) you'll be using it. For the purposes you describe, I don't think you can go wrong with the Groz. If you're still not sure, buy the Groz, take it to your shop and see how much or if it's off square, and if that doesn't meet with your minimum requirements, take it back and tell them it's not square and step up to the Starett.

[Bill]

The only "test" I can think of is the one I learned for a carpenter's square: You use the square to draw a perpendicular line to the edge of a board, then you flip the square over and draw another line. The lines should be the same or parallel. Repeat several times for higher confidence. How does that test measure-up here???

Bill

[Chris Friesen]

If you don't already have a known-good square, then that test works. You need to make sure that the edge you're referencing the square against is straight. If you're using a wooden surface, a knife will give a finer line than a pencil.

If you've got a known-good square (a drafting triangle works fine) then take it and the one being tested and place them both facing each other against a known-straight edge. Hold it up against a light and see how big the gap (if any) is between the two blades.

Chris