Electrical wiring

no spam wrote: ...

If you wire for higher ampacity, then may as well install appropriately sized breakers and outlets, etc., at the time. Otherwise, unless wasted the extra money for the higher-rated outlets until that unforeseen maybe never to happen time in the future, placing simply a larger breaker may be fine for the wiring itself but not for the outlets, etc., ...

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Reply to
dpb
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Yeah, right. My uncle did that when he built his house back in the '60s. He ran 12 ga to every single device in the house--receptacles, switches, lights. At the tiime I thought it was a good idea--after all, it's only one size up, right?

Said he'd never do it again. He nearly crippled himself wiring all those living room receptacles designed to accommodate a reading lamp and the bedroom receptacles designed for an alarm clock. To what purpose? Don't believe me? Go stuff a half dozen boxes with 12 gauge wire and wire the receptacles. Then do the same with 14 guage wire. The difference in effort is not trivial.

The shop, on the other hand, is a supportable venture in the larger wire department. However, unless you're looking at something significantly greater than say 1000 ft^2 and without a nearby or en suite load center, you gain virtually nothing by going up a wire size.

If you're running 3HP machines (kind of a regular, home shop size motor) you don't need any more than a 20A circuit at 240V. If you're running 5HP you have to go to 30A anyway (and it's more than enough) so why would you need to go to 40A?

You can't be serious. It's not nearly as difficult as finding a 15 or

20 amp receptacle into which you can stuff that 8 gauge wire.

You'd be hard pressed working 10 gauge (30A) wire around very many boxes before you realized what a load of an idea that was. Forget 8 gauge.

Dumb idea #3. The difference in cost between a 20A breaker and 30A breaker is negligible (they're virtually the same in the Square D QO line). If you really were commited to running 10 gauge wire throughout the house (ignoring, for the moment, the difficulty in working it and the utter lack of need for it) why would you not go ahead and put 30A breakers in?

All this talk about sizing up electrical circuits is roughly the same as knot tying by someone who doesn't know how to tie knots--if one loop is good, two or three must be two or three times better, right? Hah.

Reply to
LRod

Lightweight, and less expensive.

Required? Really? That's unusual.

Yes.

Yes.

Other than as a service entrance, no, not if I can help it.

Reply to
Doug Miller

|> Speaking of useless answers. I went to some trade show years ago. I |> got a tote bag that might have said Copper is Proper. I cannot find |> the tote bag to see if that was the logo. Two points were made in the |> handout and it was geared towards commercial electricians. Well maybe |> one point. Copper flows electricity better than aluminum. 12 guage can |> be less expensive over the life of a building versus 14 guage due to |> lower power losses with the bigger wire. Equipment can run better with |> lower voltage drops. | |I know copper wire has many advantages over AL wire but I have a question or |two. | |First off why is almost all the 'big' wire AL? When I started service here |I was required to buy AL wire to connect the meter to the breaker box on the |pole and to connect that box to the breaker box in the trailer. | |Also can you even buy 'small' AL wire, e.g. 10 ga? If so is it that much |cheaper than Cu? | |Would anyone here use AL wire for anything?

Cost and weight.

As I stated earlier, the resistivity of Al v. Cu is about 1.5 to 1.7 depending on the alloy. Expressed another way, increasing the Al wire by approximately two gauge equalizes the losses. (Cu 12 AWG ~ Al 10 AWG)

For residential wiring, the downsides of Al are corrosion, creep and dissimilar metals issues when connected to copper. The lower wire cost is eaten up by the specialized connections required to use it.

For overhead long distance transmission lines the cost and weight advantages of Al are a big deal.

Reply to
Wes Stewart

Your uncle would be right at home in most of the municipalities around here ... along with the requirement for 5/8" drywall, the minimum wire size allowed here for _any_ circuit, lights included, is 12ga.

Reply to
Swingman

Nonsense. Except on very long runs, bigger wire provides no advantages at all, and does provide significant disadvantages: a) higher cost b) greater difficulty in installation c) difficulty in finding compatible receptacles (for example, try finding a

15A rated receptacle that will accept AWG8 wire) d) the larger the wire, the fewer of them the Code allows you to put in a box.

This purpose is achieved much more easily, and at considerably lower cost, by keeping the wire size the same and increasing the number of circuits.

Nonsense again. The risk of electrical fire is not significantly greater using AWG12 wire on a 20A breaker, compared to using AWG8 -- and in fact, you'd probably be creating a substantial risk of fire by attempting to connect a standard receptacle to conductors that are too large to fit under the screw terminals. Sure, you can pigtail the connections -- let me know when you're getting ready to wire up those receptacles. I want to come watch you stuff the wires back in the box; I could use a few laughs.

And then I'll phone the local electrical inspector. "Wire that will carry 40 amps or so" is AWG8 or larger. You might want to consult Table 314.16(A) in the NEC to see how many AWG8 conductors the Code allows you to put in a standard device box. (Hint: except with the largest device box available, it's not enough to supply a receptacle -- and forget about feeding through to another receptacle, or using anything larger than AWG8.)

Nonsense yet again. What, exactly, do you plan to "upsize" to, anyway? It's a Code violation to put a 20A receptacle on a circuit protected by anything but a 20A breaker. The larger wire serves no purpose at all.

Reply to
Doug Miller

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I assume somebody must still make it, but out of curiousity I did a little looking -- lots of feeder and various other larger cable, but I couldn't find a single reference to 10/x or smaller Al. Smallest I found was #8.

I'm thinking w/ the Al-wiring scare there simply has been so little demand for ordinary circuit Al wiring it has become almost, if not, a thing of the past.

I'm not sure for the smaller gauges the cost differential would be that great, but maybe, but couldn't find any to try to do a comparison on...

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Reply to
dpb

Hmm. Thought I'd seen #10 not too long ago. But then, "not too long ago" is a longer time period than it used to be, too. :-(

I imagine the biggest factor is this:

"Conductors normally used to carry current shall be of copper unless otherwise provided in this Code." [2005 NEC, Article 110.5]

Exceptions include services and feeders, but not (as far as I can tell) branch circuits.

Reply to
Doug Miller

I started to say I thought the Code _might_ have removed AL from branch circuit use, but wasn't sure enough to say so (and didn't feel like digging through to find out for sure).

That pp would certainly put a crimp in the market, wouldn't it? :)

So, at least for all practical purposes, the answer to the question of is AL in smaller sizes (for electrical wiring purposes) available is "No"...

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Reply to
dpb

So, with 60+ (sometimes contentious) posts and not a peep from the OP, does anyone else get that sharp pain in the cheek feeling that comes from striking the lure?

Reply to
LRod

Just curious.....aren't most electrical fires related to junctions, switches, receptacles and things plugged into them? In other words aren't strait wire runs the least problematic of any potential electrical fault as well? Rod

Reply to
Rod & Betty Jo

IIRC, you can use a smaller Cu wire.

I just know what the permit people told me. I guess you can't buy a Cu rated meter box.

I missed a word. It should read: Would anyone here use AL wire for anything else? That is would anyone here use AL wire from the breaker box to the outlets.

Reply to
no spam

True but I was thinking of being able to add more outlets to the same line. Example when I bought my last house there was one outlet along the wall were I wanted to put my entertainment center I had to use 2 power strips. No big deal there because nothing was drawing much power and very few of the items were on at any one time. But what if in the future things need more power? I'm guessing they will. Its a lot easier to put an outlet or two on an existing circuit than it is to run an entire new line from the breaker box. Who know what we will need in 10 years. Its a bit more than 10 years old but the house mom lives in had a total of 6 fuses when it was built!! I think when we remodeled it we added 6 more circuits, with fuses so you can tell that's been a while ago. :)

I might change my mind when I start building. But right now its going to be an over wired, concrete dome with metal studs and fiberglass backed wallboard. I'm a bit paranoid about fire so there will be very few flammable building materials used in it.

Reply to
no spam

But the comparison of the required Cu to that for Al for the same current rating still favors Al in a sizable ratio.

I'm sure they were simply telling you to do common practice. Al is the de facto standard for feeder/service use.

See Doug's response -- w/ NEC 2005 at least it isn't allowed.

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Reply to
dpb

Exactly right in all respects, Rod.

Reply to
Doug Miller

Of course it is. But if you increase the breaker size past 20A, every single one of your outlets turns into a Code violation.

Reply to
Doug Miller

Name plate ratings of molded case thermal-magnetic c'bkrs are for bkrs in free air.

As soon as the bkr is placed in an enclosure, detating applies.

Take your meds and go read your code book again, this time try to understand what you read.

Three (3) hours doesn't meet the definition of "continuous" in my world.

Lew

Reply to
Lew Hodgett

Got a Code cite for that?

I didn't think so.

The definition of "continuous" in your world, wherever that may be, is irrelevant. The only meaningful definition, for purposes of determining Code compliance, is that provided by Article 100 of the NEC: "a load where the maximum current is expected to continue for 3 hours or more."

And *that* is where the 20% derating applies: to continuous loads as defined by the NEC. Not as defined by Lew.

Now go take your meds and read your code book again. This time try to understand what you read.

Reply to
Doug Miller

"no spam" wrote in news:dT_vi.37655$ snipped-for-privacy@newsreading01.news.tds.net:

*snip*

*snip*

That was my theory with my LAN. When I was initially building it, I decided to go with Cat 5 cable capable of 100 mbs, and only get a hub capable of 10 mbs. When the prices came down on 100 mbs switches, all I had to do was unplug one and plug in the new one.

Puckdropper

Reply to
Puckdropper

This is just patently incorrect. Perhaps it's a typo, but in matters like this good proof reading becomes essential. 10/2 is not used in 120v circuits only.

Reply to
Mike Marlow

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