Education

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Most parents do a fine job. They get them to school every day, then pick them up or get them on the bus. You expect more?
What I also found amazing was the attitude of many parents. We had various programs such as class mothers, Home & School Assoc, a bus committee, etc and all were open and requested as many parents as could to join in. The same handful of parents participated but all the ones that did not accused the participants of trying to run the school.
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Edwin Pawlowski said:

You're kidding, right? I'd start with basic respect for others and discipline. And then perhaps an appreciation for learning, non-disruption of classes by hooligans. Had these problems to a lesser degree even when I was in primary school. Many times, a trip (or the threat of it) into the hall with the vice-principle and his paddle cured many ills - at least on the surface.

Most assuredly varies by demographics. And I'm not talking racial factors. I've heard from local teachers about bitching parents who complain about the treatment of their "special little Billy". If he's so damned special he can't behave in school, send him elsewhere. (Sub "she/her" where appropriate.) Not to mention law suits, guns, drugs, bullies, alcoholic parents, etc. It can be a nerve wracking job. Slow I could deal with, malicious deserves to get it's ass kicked.
And then there are the time-outers. Kids pitching a fit in public, screaming vile things at the top of their lungs, while the parent(s) stand there watching and essentially talking to themselves. Not an unusual occurrence in modern Yuppyland. Further south they get their butts yanked. Guess where the most suicide/murder shootings take place? Then there are the lawyers and politicians kids... Gag.
Greg G.
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You nailed it. Of far greater importance than fancy schools and highly paid teachers, parents who spend time with their kids, and have an interest in what the kids are learning, IMO. My mother started school in what was effectively a one room school house, but her parents helped her get and keep an interest in learning. The local high school was larger and more modern, but kids back then got away with zilch in school. She went on to locate a nursing school that paid a small stipend ($15 a month) plus room and board, and got her RN. This was in 1928, and her studies contined on for three years, culminating in a job with the Feds that paid $1,100 a year, which was pretty decent money in 1931. Parental involvement.
That RN license allowed her to keep our family afloat when my father was unable to work: all of it traces back to my lightly educated grandparents wanting their kids to better themselves. Out of 12 kids who lived to be adults, there were athree RNs, one high school Latin teacher, a contractor (probably made the most money of the lot), an exec for, IIRC, Hechinger lumberyards (granddad had a farm and sawmill--shades of the Waltons and same area, but a whole lot sweatier lifestyle), one was an auto mechanic (taught by my father) who ended up as a teacher of auto mechanics at a local junior college, one guy who worked in a machine shop, an assistant postmaster in Charlottesville, VA, and on. All got away from the farm, or mostly away. My auto mechanic uncle always raised a huge truck garden, filling his own family's needs, and giving the rest (about 70% most years) to local elderly or disabled people. One aunt married a farmer-- he died last year at 92, but she's still going, as is the former Latin teacher and the assistant postmaster.
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"Stewart Schooley" wrote :

If a kid doesn't want to learn, sounds like a failure of the teacher to properly communicate and motivate to me.
If a kid gets a chance to spend a few days mucking out chicken houses when the temps and the humidity are both about 90, hopefully the kid will learn something like maybe they don't want to muck any more chicken coops.
If they are also informed that without an education, they will probably spend a lot more of their life mucking chicken houses or other similar unpleasant tasks, they will probably get a real big chunk of motivation along about then.
Communication and motivation are tools that work almost every time out of the box.
Know someone who fits the above like a glove.
Today he is middle aged, full blown rocket scientist who put himself thru both undergrad and grad school with full scholarships.
As a 14 year old kid, stole his father's car, totaled it, and damn near killed himself in the process.
It was a defining moment in his life.
Lew
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And then he grew up to be Queen of England...
(or maybe not; they don't hand that job to just anyone you know)
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I don't have the solution, but that has to be the biggest bunch of hooey I've ever read.
jc
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jc,
I have 33 years experience in education. How about you?
I may have used a pretty broad brush for purposes of brevity, but I am right on target in stating the major problem in education today.
Can't you see that Swingman has it right? The sad truth is that too many parents have relegated their children into being "hewers of wood and drawers of water" and their isn't enough money or knowledge of what to do that will correct this.
It is sad, but never the less we can't allow those who don't want to learn to disrupt those who do.
Stewart
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"Stewart Schooley" wrote

We've discussed this before, back in August of last year:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/browse_frm/thread/1f46ee2ff02e50e8/7f52d83f700b3859?lnk=st&q=#7f52d83f700b3859
I still like the idea of the old "Tripartite" educational system I saw back in the UK in the mid 60's ... read the above for details.
http://www.summitsat.co.uk/about-11-plus-exam.php
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I don't need 33 years to have an opinion.

Damn straight.
but I am right

Attendance? Maybe.

I would find it difficult to measure 'motivation'. Opens the doors to way too much confilct (lawsuits when you segregate based on subjective measure?), which Iguess could be mitigated with lots of time and money which would be better poured into educators than more bureacracy, which is what the conflict mitigation would be.

Agreed.
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"LRod" wrote

Although that word/concept has been thoroughly tainted by the idiocracy, whatever it takes to get the money to go with the kid ... tax incentives/credits/whatever.
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Leon wrote: ...
...

Bingo 1...
...

Bingo 2...
Take inner-city kids, make them 80% of the student body and see how the same school fares over time...
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Ahh, now we're getting down to why some want our kids in private schools.
And of course those same "some" think government should pay for it by issuing vouchers, releiving the parents of the cost of getting their child out of the "undesireables' " schools.
Now, when we take money from Peter (the public schools) to help Paul (the parents who don't want their kids to go to the "undesireables' " schools) how does that improve the already underfunded public education system?
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"LRod" wrote

IIRC, it is taxpayer money that pays for everything government spends. :)
Our schools are not "underfunded" around here by a long shot, they're "misfunded".
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Swingman said:

Well it sure isn't the interest from savings. The government at this point is akin to a crack head nephew with your charge card and PIN.

Correct again. One major factor - bloated, bureaucracies stuffed with favor passing cronies - at least around here. Many weak contenders who can not make it through elections consider it an alternate stepping stone to public service. Even when failing to reach that goal, you should see some of the ridiculous salaries - many of which the pubic is unaware of. School superintendent - $238,000 a year. Not a major city, just an outlying country. School board attorney - $420,000 + "bond referral fees" which add up to hundreds of thousands more in some high growth areas. And yep, it's all your money. Wasted.
Greg G.
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Snip

And in the Houston area those high paid officials, running our schools, and making hundreds of thousands of dollars are "obviously" the lucky beneficiaries Affirmative Action.. To tell you the truth the last superintendent of HISD sounded/spoke like he had a 5th grade education.
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Leon said:

Forgot to mention that the salaries I mentioned are from 15 years ago. They've gotten worse. Apparently GA wasn't much better than Houston last time I noticed. I moved to Florida and ironically enough, the same clown they ran out of GA ended up in the Pinellas County school system - along with his perv son who tormented the locals with helicopters and such over property tax foreclosures on "postage stamp" properties near housing developments. I wonder if they are related to the Detroit Mob Toccos? Nevertheless, he is another Rove/Bush tool. I wonder how these folks rationalize these behaviors with their rolls in public service?
http://webpages.charter.net/videodoctor/images/ATocco.jpg
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/16/news_pf/TampaBay/Land_sliver_s_buyer_m.shtml
Lucky you, he is now in Fort Worth, Texas. 2004 salary - $314,212. His daily pay rate for 2004 was $1,309.20.
Nice!
Greg G.
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Greg G. said:

Errata: No longer the superintendent of Ft. Worth. No forwarding address. 2005 salary was $376,000.
Gads, if we all got raises like that the economy would be booming - if it weren't taxpayer money, that is. Not to mention the outstanding lifetime health care and retirement programs - at your expense. If the average American knew what these guys and their pals in the judiciary, house.and senate voted for themselves, there would be pitchforks aplenty headed towards DC and severed heads lining K-street.
Screw the tea in Boston Harbor.
Greg G.
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Leon said:

I forgot to include one of my favorite Mark Twain truisms:
First, God created idiots. That was for practice. Then he created school boards.
Greg G.
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"Leon" wrote

In this case, an absolute perfect example of "being educated beyond your intelligence..."!
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And you have to wonder at the layers of administration: naturally enough, some teachers head for the admin area because of the pay. Around here, a school principal gets about double what the best paid teacher gets, while his assistants (of whom there are anywhere from three to six) get about 75% of his pay.
Is that a sad disparity? Probably not as bad as the CEO who gets 5,000 times the 10 bucks an hour his lowest paid employee gets, but that CEO is not paid from tax dollars. I wouldn't have either job these days, teaching or admin, but it does seem to me that at least SOME teachers in the system should equal or surpass the principal's salary. I recall a few years ago having a guy who owned a furniture factory at that time telling me he was delighted when all of his sales people made more than he did. Seems a sane attitude to me, and one that with adjustment might be applicable in many areas.
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