Dust Collection Saga Goes On

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The new dust collector has been in place a couple of weeks now and here is what I have found. (50-763 3HP)
The jointer and planer went as planned and work wonderful. I get just a tiny bit of "blow back" from both machines.
I "finally" got around to hooking up to my 12/14" saw last night. I made my brand new dust door from MDF and rare earth magnets and that works like a champ.
The saw is the longest of any of the runs and I'm using 4" flex hose all the way.(12-15' max)
I hooked it up and hit the start button and sure enough, it started working. It DID NOT empty the machine and with all the holes in the saw base, I'm surprised it did anything at all. I have to come up with a method of closing up some of the many places air is escaping.
My motor cover is quite large and it is covered in slots for motor ventilation. The throat plate has two big holes in it and the plate doesn't(can't) fit very tightly on my saw.
I also believe I will get rid of more dust if I come up with a method of directing the dust straight to the dust port. I plan on building some sort of "ramps" that fit in the cabinet and that will "funnel" the dust to the dust port.
If I do "nothing" more to the saw, I believe the dust collector will get "most" of the saw dust after it reaches a certain "level" in the saw. I don't believe the saw dust will ever get above that certain point.
I'm curious about how others have faired with table saw dust collection.
I'm still perplexed about what size pipe I'm using and what I could do about it.
The new collector has two methods:
A inlet with four 4" holes.
A single inlet with a 8" inlet.
I checked around and 8" pipe is both rare and very expensive. I found a source of 8" flex but again, very expensive.
Even if I bite the bullet and get the 8" pipe, that leaves the problem of how to transition to each machine.
Most of my machines are really geared toward 4" outlets and that creates more peroblems.
I "believe" the BIG pipe is the better method but because of my new layout, rigid pipe is a real problem.
I am almost "stuck" with "flex pipe" so I have to make do with the situation at hand.
I LOVE my new layout but now this pipe thing has got in the way.
I'll get a few shots tonight of the new DC with the tools in their current location. ______________________________________________
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Stay with the 4 ". You should be able to get enough suction so that while the saw is running most of the airborne dust will get collected. You can also consider building some internal collector that covers the under side of the blade with an outlet facing the dust collection.
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That is a very short run. A 3HP DC should suck the chrome right off the ... well it'll suck a lot.

Or, you could just leave it alone. My Unisaw cabinet will collect about 1/3 full of dust, on the side/corner farthest away from the DC port. So what? It is still collected and not down my pants. It is self-limiting and will discharge the chips above the limit.

Duct tape on the inside of the louvers is an easy fix, invisible from the outside. My DC dust door is louvered, and instead of replacing it with a homade cover I just slapped on some duct tape. Should work fine on your motor cover too.

Leakage there won't matter. A loose throat plate is a problem for other reasons however.

That will work if the situation really bothers you.

Exactly. And the problems is?

The only thing better would be an overhead guard with collection. I will NOT be adding that.
For perspective, my DC is a Jet 1100, 1.5 HP. My tablesaw is the furthest from the DC, including, from the saw end, 4' of flex, 8 feet of pipe up the wall, 20' of pipe along the west wall, 20' of pipe along the north wall, 4' of pipe to a cyclone, 12' of pipe/flex down the wall and over to the DC, all 4" size. Collection in the saw cabinet is satisfactory. The problem is dust which never makes it into the cabinet, and that would be the job of an overhead guard.
-- ******** Bill Pounds http://www.billpounds.com
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"Pounds on Wood" wrote in message

If you don't mind me asking, how many blast gates, and what kind, do you have in the system?
--
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Last update: 5/14/05
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Let's see if I can describe the layout. It would help if you looked at the floor plan on my web page. Starting at the Unisaw which I described above, I have a line that goes up the west wall (next to the garage door) and then traverses along the ceiling above the garage door the entire width of the shop. Mid way along that line I have a branch which goes horizontally right down the center of the shop with drops to the jointer, bandsaw, beltsander, and a blank end where I would like to add a drop to the lathe. Those drops are all flex. Now back to the line along the wall, it then turns along the north shop wall and traverses the entire wall. Mid way along that wall there is a drop to a single port which I can connect to the planer or router table. I think that probably totals 60 feet of hard pipe plus some flex. The corner elbows are made up of 2-45 degree fittings to ease the flow. Tees are sanitary flow style. All the fittings are irrigation pipe, not DC fittings. The ID of irrigation fittings is larger than the ID of DC fittings, and cheaper too. I devised a way of making my own adapter from the irrigation pipe to flex hose. They are made by splitting the thin wall irrigation pipe and using PVC cement to glue them up.
There are aluminum blast gates at, TS, jointer, bandsaw, beltsander, planer/router shared. So 5 gates I think. When I moved my shop 2 years ago I retired all the plastic blast gates and went aluminum.
-- ******** Bill Pounds http://www.billpounds.com
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My table saw (Jet supersaw) does not have the best reputation for in cabinet dust collection (poor design). However, it made a significant difference in performance when I replaced flex hose with solid pipe leading into cabinet. I think your nominal 12' run of flex hose is affecting your efficiency more than you may realize.
I also added above the table collection. Cabinet dust collection on most American design table saws does not help much under certain conditions, especially if you use a zero clearance throat plate.
Bob
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Pat Barber wrote:

I'd not cover the motor ventilation slots as I think someone else suggested for (to me) obvious reasons. I also don't disagree w/ the viewpoint that if there's a residual dust/chips in the bottom it really makes any difference.
...

About the same w/ the PM 66...it picks up what it picks up and that isn't on the shop floor or in the air. That's good enough for me. I don't have overhead collection which would be good from the collection standpoint but more of a pita wrt having stuff "in the way"...

The ideal would be to have an 8" trunk line and transitions to the individual machines. I'd strive to as close an approximation to that as I could achieve. I'd also strive for as little corrugate flex piping as possible for efficiency reasons.
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<snip>

chip seperator. Mine's shopbuilt, but it's made a big difference. In my case, it also cut down the length of the run with the heavier chip load. In other words, the long run for me is between the impeller and the seperator.
I dump the chip can maybe 10 times for each time I empty the plastic dust bag on my 1.5 hp Delta.
And I don't worry about the inside of the Unisaw getting full. About twice a year, I dig out the offcuts that have made their way inside. Otherwise, no problems. Except when I do 'just a couple of quick things' without turning on the DC.
That's a human problem.
Patriarch
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I have a Delta contractors saw, and a Harbor Freight 2(?) HP dust collector, 4" hoses. I built a dust hopper for the bottom of the saw out of sheet metal, but have not done any other alterations to the saw. The opening in the back for the motor is wide open. I am very satisfied with the dust collection on my TS. The only way to improve it would be an over arm guard/collector. I have two hoses and often leave one connected to the jointer, and one to the TS and don't see any difference if I close one off or leave both open. Dust near the blade opening gets sucked right in. Don't go crazy sealing up the openings of the saw, you need some openings for air movement for the collector to work properly. Greg
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You may not have to build them. In the base of my contractor saw, there is buildup on the sides and it funnels down to the 4" hose. It never get beyhone a certain amount so I just leave it there.
As for the holes, you need air coming in to the hose from someplace. Don't make it airtight or it will not suck at all.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome /





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I do believe that "most" will be the best you can expect from your setup.
Your idea of creating some additional ramps to help funnel chips and dust may help, but you will not get to 100% collection.
I've spent (wasted) a lot of time with my unisaw's dust collection issue, and have settled on "most collected." I would suggest some sort of over-the-blade guard/collection setup, this has really helped me reduce airborne dust. I really don't get a build-up in the saw, just seems to fill areas that don't get good air flow.

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I'm not an expert..but I play one on TV
No seriously, I work in the air movement business and have spoken to a few of the people that I work with. They say a big factor may byethe number of corners you have introduced in the line. You can expect a decrease of 8% for every 90 degree turn you introduce. This includes all connectors. Hope this helps. Fogive if I'm stating the obvious. Sean
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Sorry, Forgot to mention that flex pipe itself also introduces an 8% in CFM reduction because of the ridges in the pipe.
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This is a real killer. Due to my layout of equipment, I'm sort of stuck with flex hose. I rearranged the shop and put the major machines as close to each other as practical.
This was to cut down on the length of DC runs and maybe improve work flow. I may have screwed myself, but I really like the new layout for work flow.
Is there a flex pipe(or semi-flex) that doesn't reduce air flow as much ???
Many folks I have spoken to seem to resign themselves to getting a "certain level" of clean in table saws and that's all you get...
I'm gonna play with a combo of 4" S&D pipe and flex hose over the weekend and see if that really makes a BIG difference.
mrcomp_ca wrote:

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Sorry,
The trade off for flexibility and convenience is reduced air flow. No way around it except to install solid pipe. Good luck playing. Sean
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On Thu, 19 May 2005 19:37:06 GMT, Pat Barber

=====================I only skimmed the first few messages then deleted them... But I really can not understand why you are stuck with flex pipe...
why can't you run solid pipe from the ceiling with drops controlled by blastgates ? or along the walls with "short lenghts of flex pipe to connect a machine...(also with blast gates)..
Anyhow... I actually have 2 DC's in my shop...plus 2 air filters...and I do not use them for health reasons...I just like a cleaner "looking" shop in which to relax in...
I run a Jet Cabinet saw and I really do not care if sawdust accumulates inside the cabinet... in over 15 years it has never been a problem.... Yes every now and then I do pull the motor cover off and vaccum inside..."now" is never a good time however and "then" never seems to get here... In other words its been over a year since I cleaned it out and I am retired and use the saw almost every day...
Bob Griffiths
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Here is a shot of the new arrangement less the DC...
http://home.att.net/~mboceanside/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-773478.html
The DC is now in that space between window and breaker panel..
Note how close all the equipment is..
My ceiling is 12'6" and there is some doubt(on my part) if a 3hp DC can lift dust effectively at that height. You can also see that the planer(15") and the jointer(8") are no more than 6' from the DC. The big table saw is/has been the problem.
I would hate to think how a 8" piece of PVC pipe would look if I ran straight up, over 10' and then down 12'6" to the floor for just one machine.
Here is another angle of the tools:
http://home.att.net/~mboceanside/wsb/html/view.cgi-photo.html--SiteID-773467.html
Bob G. wrote:

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Lee Valley offers a couple of "smooth walled" flex hose options. I don't know if they're any better than the average stuff you buy, but it might be worth a try.
Clint

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Pat, if you only have 12-15' of hose, and a 3HP DC, you do not have a problem with flow or power. If you are happy using the hose that way, just stick with it.
You do have gates on the other lines, right?
Here is a thought - if you really want to keep the saw cabinet clean - what you have is dead air flow in the corners. That is why the dust collects there. It's not a lack of flow, just the direction of the flow. So, get some flow into the corners. The easiest way would be some holes in the cabinet at the very bottom, on the side opposite of the DC connection. You will create a cross flow situation across the bottom of the cabinet. I would NOT do that to my cabinet, and you probably won't either, but thinking about the air flow might give you some other ideas. But believe me, changing the hose to pipe, or shortening the length, is not going to clean the cabinet corners. Prove this to yourself. Move the DC right up next to the saw, temporarily. I predict you will see ZERO difference.
-- ******** Bill Pounds http://www.billpounds.com
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I actually did play with a few different options last night.
I put a straight "flex hose" directly to the saw.
I then made up a line consisting of a piece of flex dropping to the floor from the DC. I then ran a piece of 4" S&D pipe as close to the saw as I could get it and then finished off with flex.
Myself, my wife and a neighbor all attempted to tell if there was a significant difference in air flow.
Nobody was in total agreement on which was a stronger flow, but the general agreement was that the pipe did seem a "wee" bit better in moving sawdust.
I was surprised at the results....
Somebody posted a message yesterday stating that flex would cause a 8% reduction in flow.. That's not much.
I'm going to try to decide what to do for the final version over the weekend.
I'm also going to hook up my contractor saw to the mix.
That will make every single major tool in my shop hooked to a DC. I'm starting to love this.
Pounds on Wood wrote:

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